WW's Continuity Constants

[chlj1]

In thinking back about Wonder Woman over the past 3 decades(I became a fan around the time of the live-action TV show), there have been some reboots over the years. Perez and Azzarello's have been the most drastic of them all. In between, we had a mini-boot with Heinberg. Other than that, we had other writers who kept continuity but made distinct adjustments(i.e. Byrne moved Diana from Boston to Gateway City, tied Diana & Donna together as sisters again, and had Hippolyta go back in time to become the World War II Wonder Woman) but I don't see those instances as soft reboots as little about Diana's personality, powers, or history changed. Every writer before Azz used both the myth and superhero aspects of Diana's world. Every writer except Luke and Azz used Cheetah at some point. Every writer used the Olympians at some point with Perez, Luke, and Simone heavily featuring them in their runs. I don't mind changes if they make sense and make the character and her world better(yes I understand 'better" is a matter of opinion) but I don't want more stories like JMS or Azz's in the near future. I'd like to see Diana and her world go back to the basics that Marston set up with a few modernizations such as:


- Clay origin intact.

- Amazons who are shining examples of feminine accomplishment and achievement.

- Wonder Woman regularly interacting with Steve, Etta, Artemis, Donna, Nemesis, Cassie, and Sirracca.

- The Diana Prince ID restored officially with Diana working at A.R.G.U.S. but doing much more than fetching Steve's lattes and taking shorthand for him.

- Diana fighting a variety of foes such as Cheetah, Giganta, Dr. Poison, Angle Man, Ares, Dr. Cyber, Queen Clea, Dr. Psycho, Baron Blitzkreig, Queen of Fables, Kung, Hades, etc.

- Diana training and mentoring both Donna and Cassie.

- The Invisible Jet/Sky Chariot used from time to time like it was in Superman/Wonder Woman #6.

- Keep the romance with Superman going a bit longer but once that ends, put Diana back with Steve.

I agree with most of the things you have said!! But one, the WW/SM relationship should last a long time, I find the princess and the farm boy being paired together as couple very interesting!! If Dc is so hell bend on ending the relationship, than yes!! WW should be with Steve not the jerk!!

[chlj1]

In thinking back about Wonder Woman over the past 3 decades(I became a fan around the time of the live-action TV show), there have been some reboots over the years. Perez and Azzarello's have been the most drastic of them all. In between, we had a mini-boot with Heinberg. Other than that, we had other writers who kept continuity but made distinct adjustments(i.e. Byrne moved Diana from Boston to Gateway City, tied Diana & Donna together as sisters again, and had Hippolyta go back in time to become the World War II Wonder Woman) but I don't see those instances as soft reboots as little about Diana's personality, powers, or history changed. Every writer before Azz used both the myth and superhero aspects of Diana's world. Every writer except Luke and Azz used Cheetah at some point. Every writer used the Olympians at some point with Perez, Luke, and Simone heavily featuring them in their runs. I don't mind changes if they make sense and make the character and her world better(yes I understand 'better" is a matter of opinion) but I don't want more stories like JMS or Azz's in the near future. I'd like to see Diana and her world go back to the basics that Marston set up with a few modernizations such as:


- Clay origin intact.

- Amazons who are shining examples of feminine accomplishment and achievement.

- Wonder Woman regularly interacting with Steve, Etta, Artemis, Donna, Nemesis, Cassie, and Sirracca.

- The Diana Prince ID restored officially with Diana working at A.R.G.U.S. but doing much more than fetching Steve's lattes and taking shorthand for him.

- Diana fighting a variety of foes such as Cheetah, Giganta, Dr. Poison, Angle Man, Ares, Dr. Cyber, Queen Clea, Dr. Psycho, Baron Blitzkreig, Queen of Fables, Kung, Hades, etc.

- Diana training and mentoring both Donna and Cassie.

- The Invisible Jet/Sky Chariot used from time to time like it was in Superman/Wonder Woman #6.

- Keep the romance with Superman going a bit longer but once that ends, put Diana back with Steve.

I agree with most of things you have said!! But one, I think the WW/SM romance should be permanent!! I find the princess and the farm boy being paired together as couple, extremely interesting!!But if DC is so hell bend on ending their relationship, than yes!! WW should be Steve not the jerk!! Sorry for the double post!! push the wrong button!!

[Flash Gordon]

There just isn't enough EGG FU at DC.

[Dr. Poison]

There just isn't enough EGG FU at DC.

I loved Egg Fu in Byrne's run on Wonder Woman and in the 52 maxi-series. They were both proof that even the most conceptually unique villains can be written as captivating.

[GEMINUS1]

Honestly? That is really the major sticking point for me in Azzarello's run. There are other things I like and that I dislike, but nothing felt like a kick in the gut more than the fact that there is no magic, no super science, no enlightenment (or at least absolutely none that has been shown in any issue).

Diana bringing that glory is good, but in essence, it's a major slap in the face to women and the antithesis of everything Marston set down. I understand the need/desire to bring some drama and variety to the Amazons (although a lot of that has been there over the years), but to essentially say 'when a group of women get together on an island for 3000 years, they don't advance in any way, shape or form and just remain murderous, barbaric thugs (at least the Amazons we've seen) is just a bad precedent in a medium that is already overwhelmingly testosterone driven.

Thomas Wayne (male) was a great doctor and philanthropist, Jor-El (male) was a great scientist and idealist, and Hippolyta was always the enlightened queen but is now an adulterous liar who leads a backwards clan of man hating sex pirates.

Having Diana fix that doesn't change the statement it makes about Diana's family and about women as a whole. To some (a lot? many? a few?) of us, Wonder Woman and the Amazons were an oasis in a sea of masculinity where all the great things were done by men (look at any list of 'smartest people in the dcu' or check out the 100% male Illuminati over in the Marvel universe as examples)

It's bad enough that Diana went from being a genius scientist to a (so far as we've been shown) warrior without any professional skills or superhuman intelligence, but to see the Amazons dragged down so far just sorta smarts. She started from out of the gate in her first appearance as being brilliant (she invented the purple healing ray and was a skilled healer) who has gradually been dumbed down over the decades while her male counterparts rose up.

The Amazons shouldn't start from a position of needing redemption any more than any other hero's pre-established family members/society. It's like saying that the Green Lantern Corps were a bunch of goons and thugs until Hal Jordan came along and taught them to fight to protect and serve.

So although I see that that's where Azzarello is apparently going? It's not enough for me. I want the old Amazons back, please, generally as an enlightened society but with those among them who aren't all on the same page, so to speak.

/Applause. A more perfect post has never been written.

[dshipp17]

That's not a good place to start to measure her strength. Diana was having difficulty holding up against mongul. She almost died. I think we can do better than that.

It is important, because it places her at a specific power level; and, there aren't too many earthly creatures as powerful as Mongul; it creates intrigue to see Wonder Woman struggle to earn a victory, or get them where she can get victory.

[dshipp17]

Really? Hundreds of interesting villains and you chose those two?

Great point, but they were the ones that I could remember, during this post; Egg-Fu came the closest to victory over Wonder Woman, pre-crisis, and Inversion created such a new dynamic with Wonder Woman in a way similar to Dr. Psycho, as far as my tastes goes.

[Dr. Hurt]

Honestly? That is really the major sticking point for me in Azzarello's run. There are other things I like and that I dislike, but nothing felt like a kick in the gut more than the fact that there is no magic, no super science, no enlightenment (or at least absolutely none that has been shown in any issue).

Diana bringing that glory is good, but in essence, it's a major slap in the face to women and the antithesis of everything Marston set down. I understand the need/desire to bring some drama and variety to the Amazons (although a lot of that has been there over the years), but to essentially say 'when a group of women get together on an island for 3000 years, they don't advance in any way, shape or form and just remain murderous, barbaric thugs (at least the Amazons we've seen) is just a bad precedent in a medium that is already overwhelmingly testosterone driven.

Thomas Wayne (male) was a great doctor and philanthropist, Jor-El (male) was a great scientist and idealist, and Hippolyta was always the enlightened queen but is now an adulterous liar who leads a backwards clan of man hating sex pirates.

Having Diana fix that doesn't change the statement it makes about Diana's family and about women as a whole. To some (a lot? many? a few?) of us, Wonder Woman and the Amazons were an oasis in a sea of masculinity where all the great things were done by men (look at any list of 'smartest people in the dcu' or check out the 100% male Illuminati over in the Marvel universe as examples)

It's bad enough that Diana went from being a genius scientist to a (so far as we've been shown) warrior without any professional skills or superhuman intelligence, but to see the Amazons dragged down so far just sorta smarts. She started from out of the gate in her first appearance as being brilliant (she invented the purple healing ray and was a skilled healer) who has gradually been dumbed down over the decades while her male counterparts rose up.

The Amazons shouldn't start from a position of needing redemption any more than any other hero's pre-established family members/society. It's like saying that the Green Lantern Corps were a bunch of goons and thugs until Hal Jordan came along and taught them to fight to protect and serve.

So although I see that that's where Azzarello is apparently going? It's not enough for me. I want the old Amazons back, please, generally as an enlightened society but with those among them who aren't all on the same page, so to speak.

You sold me. I initially didnt know where Azzarello was going to take the sex pirate story, i thought it might have some political, mythological, or metatextual extensions, but in the end he went for the predictable resolution of showing the Amazons as barbarians that WW teaches. Somehow she's so much better and open minded than them, even though she was raised by them.

So i agree with everything you said and the more the run reaches its conclusion the more it disappoints me and it makes me feel like it was kept up by pretty designs and by Azzarello not answering any questions as he goes along.

[Amazon Swordsman]

It is important, because it places her at a specific power level; and, there aren't two many earthly creatures as powerful as Mongul; it creates intrigue to see Wonder Woman struggle to earn a victory, or get them where she can get victory.

What is with this overwhelming interest to see Wonder Woman struggle and get her ass kicked around in every fight? Mind you, I don't want her curbstomping everyone she encounters in battle either, but she herself should be hard as hell to take down. I'd much rather see versatility and variation in her fighting techniques, forcing her to make adjustments to battles as she encounters different kinds of opponents/threats.

[dshipp17]

What is with this overwhelming interest to see Wonder Woman struggle and get her ass kicked around in every fight? Mind you, I don't want her curbstomping everyone she encounters in battle either, but she herself should be hard as hell to take down. I'd much rather see versatility and variation in her fighting techniques, forcing her to make adjustments to battles as she encounters different kinds of opponents/threats.

One thing I didn't like about runs such as Perez, Rucka, and Simone's were their tendency to show Wonder Woman getting easy victories. I don't think it's a preference to see Wonder Woman losing, but seeing her struggle in battles, with legitimate threats of losing. Mongul's victory was easy, but, as much as it could have been better, it was preferable to seeing her getting easy victories. I really want to see her stories resemble what we see with Dejah Thoris.

[Raiden]

One thing I didn't like about runs such as Perez, Rucka, and Simone's were their tendency to show Wonder Woman getting easy victories. I don't think it's a preference to see Wonder Woman losing, but seeing her struggle in battles, with legitimate threats of losing. Mongul's victory was easy, but, as much as it could have been better, it was preferable to seeing her getting easy victories. I really want to see her stories resemble what we see with Dejah Thoris.

In Rucka's run she lost her eyes in a battle against medusa, hades almost killed her if Ares had not saved her she would be bad, zoom punched her from one country to another. Wonder Woman did not really win in heketeia either.

In Simone's run genocide beat her mercilessly, Perez Wonder Woman wasn't even that powerful.

Thing is if you want to satisfy your fantasies then you ll have to look somewhere else. Hopefully creepy villains like Dr. Psycho never return to wonder woman's book.

[dshipp17]

In Rucka's run she lost her eyes in a battle against medusa, hades almost killed her if Ares had not saved her she would be bad, zoom punched her from one country to another. Wonder Woman did not really win in heketeia either.

In Simone's run genocide beat her mercilessly, Perez Wonder Woman wasn't even that powerful.

Thing is if you want to satisfy your fantasies then you ll have to look somewhere else. Hopefully creepy villains like Dr. Psycho never return to wonder woman's book.

Overall, and in the vast majority of the cases, Wonder Woman got easy victories in Perez, Rucka, and Simone's run, particularly, in Rucka's run.

I really would have liked to see Rucka's run have been completed, mainly because there was an open theme between Dr. Psycho, Wonder Woman, and Veronica Cale, where Veronica allowed herself to be bound by Dr. Psycho. If you would like to see Dr. Psycho kept away from the Wonder Woman book, than what do you think of the Joker in Batman's book? For me, Dr. Psycho is essential to Wonder Woman's book and needs to be brought back immediately; from there, he deserves 17 issues for every 33 issues of all future Wonder Woman issues, and the Finch(es) run is a great place to start; I'm looking forward to their arrival for this possibility.

[wagthedog]

Overall, and in the vast majority of the cases, Wonder Woman got easy victories in Perez, Rucka, and Simone's run, particularly, in Rucka's run.

I really would have liked to see Rucka's run have been completed, mainly because there was an open theme between Dr. Psycho, Wonder Woman, and Veronica Cale, where Veronica allowed herself to be bound by Dr. Psycho. If you would like to see Dr. Psycho kept away from the Wonder Woman book, than what do you think of the Joker in Batman's book? For me, Dr. Psycho is essential to Wonder Woman's book and needs to be brought back immediately; from there, he deserves 17 issues for every 33 issues of all future Wonder Woman issues, and the Finch(es) run is a great place to start; I'm looking forward to their arrival for this possibility.

Well, Azz hasn't really done much differently in that department. Either Wonder Woman has had very easy victories, or she has gotten her ass kicked. No in-between type of fights.

[Amazon Swordsman]

One thing I didn't like about runs such as Perez, Rucka, and Simone's were their tendency to show Wonder Woman getting easy victories. I don't think it's a preference to see Wonder Woman losing, but seeing her struggle in battles, with legitimate threats of losing. Mongul's victory was easy, but, as much as it could have been better, it was preferable to seeing her getting easy victories. I really want to see her stories resemble what we see with Dejah Thoris.

You seem to be laboring with the catchphrase "Where there's no struggle, there's no progress". Am I on the right track? If so, I'm not completely sold. Diana should only really 'struggle' with adversaries who are greater than or equal to her in power and ability, or in situations where her powers would be otherwise ineffective.

I don't believe you have to constantly write Wonder Woman constantly dragging along struggle boulevard in order to have compelling storytelling. Thing is, her current run is so heavy on the mythological angle, it doesn't seem like there's a lot of variety in how she tackles her situations.

[Raiden]

Overall, and in the vast majority of the cases, Wonder Woman got easy victories in Perez, Rucka, and Simone's run, particularly, in Rucka's run.

Her battles under these writers were some of bloodiest battles in comic book history, she even lost her eyes. While it is true that she wasn't knocked out flat on her back with her bust exposed waiting for disfigured villain to drag her away for you to consider her victories hard earned.