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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurolegacy View Post
    What makes it especially a waste though is that they just full on reverted him to factory default. At very least they could have compromised by having him abandon the title of Spider-Man and become Doc Ock with the Superior Octopus look. That was a genuinely great look for him and they threw it away.
    My exact sentiment.

  2. #17
    Ultimate Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Thing is, they don't even need a villainous Otto. He's not the only Doctor Octopus.
    Carolyn Trainer uses Lady Octopus now.

    Was she in Superior Spider-Man? I don't remember seeing her. But sure, definitely a non-Otto Octavius Octopus villain... or something. She's a bit... hazy in allegiance sometimes

  3. #18
    Astonishing Member 9th.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurolegacy View Post
    What makes it especially a waste though is that they just full on reverted him to factory default. At very least they could have compromised by having him abandon the title of Spider-Man and become Doc Ock with the Superior Octopus look. That was a genuinely great look for him and they threw it away.
    That really sucks but it's the nature of comic books I guess.
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  4. #19
    Ultimate Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    Given the solicits for beyond with Ock working with May and going up against Ben Reilly, I think they're leaving Ock in a more morally ambigious place right now. hard to say where he'll end up in the short term.

  5. #20
    Incredible Member Aura Blaize's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Somecrazyaussie View Post
    Never going to happen. The guy is a classic spidey rogue. Number #2 on the list.

    Fact is, Superior was a story with a beginning, middle and end. It should have stayed that way.

    The best you can hope for as a anti-hero Ock at this point. But it isn't exactly in his character.
    I've always considered this a bullshit reason. So villains aren't allowed to change? I mean, maybe someone should tell that to Venom, who would probably have taken spot #3 on that rogue's list.

    The big problem is that with Superior, he actually underwent character development. It seemed like he was actually going in a different direction while still being an interesting character. I mean, he actually broke down about the amount of people that were killed in War of the Realms. They gave him a love interest even!

    So they generally make the fans believe he's going to change.....and then they revert him to classic Ock in the absolute worst way possible. And why? Because "He's a classic rogue"? That reason is the most hollow and laziest thing ever. If everything is going to end up reverting back to status quo because you can't mess with the classics, then why even bother? I shouldn't care about whatever Venom is doing because eventually we're going to go back to "We hate Spider-Man and must eat his brains!". Also, Jonah is apparently going to go back to demanding pictures of "that webbed menace!" because character development be damned. Hell, even now with Norman, they could do something interesting with him actually trying to not be a piece of ****, but no, he's almost assuredly going to go back to being the Green Goblin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tendrin View Post
    Given the solicits for beyond with Ock working with May and going up against Ben Reilly, I think they're leaving Ock in a more morally ambigious place right now. hard to say where he'll end up in the short term.
    This is honestly the only thing that's keeping me interested in the character. They seem reluctant to have him going back to completely being a villain so I dunno. Covers always lie after all
    Last edited by Aura Blaize; 09-18-2021 at 12:48 AM.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aura Blaize View Post
    So they generally make the fans believe he's going to change.....and then they revert him to classic Ock in the absolute worst way possible. And why? Because "He's a classic rogue"? That reason is the most hollow and laziest thing ever. If everything is going to end up reverting back to status quo because you can't mess with the classics, then why even bother? I shouldn't care about whatever Venom is doing because eventually we're going to go back to "We hate Spider-Man and must eat his brains!". Also, Jonah is apparently going to go back to demanding pictures of "that webbed menace!" because character development be damned. Hell, even now with Norman, they could do something interesting with him actually trying to not be a piece of ****, but no, he's almost assuredly going to go back to being the Green Goblin.
    That's the nature of mainstream comics. It has been for decades now. Does it suck? I agree. But eventually everything goes back to the status quo.

    Venom is a different scenario. He was villainous for a few years but they slowly positioned him as a anti-hero almost from day one. He never injured or harmed those close to Peter. Whereas rogues like Green Goblin and Doc Ock had no such reservations.

    If the Eddie Brock version of Venom had been totally evil from the outset, and gone a few more years in such a role, you bet he would still be evil today. But they got in early. Ock was evil from day one and was so for 50 years before Superior hit.

    As I stated earlier, the best case is for him to still be villainous, but have moments where he actually does do something heroic. The only reason why they had him save Peter in the early 90s in the early days of the Clone Saga is because they were going to kill him off anyway. It was ironic - Ock saves Peter, only to die later on by his Clone in Kaine.

    The only villain who hasn't gone back to straight on villainy is Magneto. That dude still walks the fine line, but isn't above getting his hands dirty.

  7. #22
    Fantastic Member Dzika_Sowa's Avatar
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    I hope Otto will return as Superior Spidey sometime in the future. Venom was Spider-Man's most dreaded enemy in 90's, and now he calls him Pete and they eat Burgers together.

    Character growth is a good thing.

  8. #23
    Ultimate Member babyblob's Avatar
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    I really enjoyed Superior Spiderman. The first series not the new one in San Fran. I loved Doc Ock Spiderman I loved everything about that series. I loved the character. but I was also bummed that the greatest growth Peter Parker had in his entire history was when someone else was in his body.

    The San Fran series was not super awful I just hate the way it ended. I Havnt read anything wit Ock since then so I cant comment on what he is like now. it would just be a huge shame if they turned him back into the mad scientist villain. I know the comics world is scared of character growth but man I would love to see it stick once in awhile.
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aura Blaize View Post
    I've always considered this a bullshit reason. So villains aren't allowed to change? I mean, maybe someone should tell that to Venom, who would probably have taken spot #3 on that rogue's list.

    The big problem is that with Superior, he actually underwent character development. It seemed like he was actually going in a different direction while still being an interesting character. I mean, he actually broke down about the amount of people that were killed in War of the Realms. They gave him a love interest even!

    So they generally make the fans believe he's going to change.....and then they revert him to classic Ock in the absolute worst way possible. And why? Because "He's a classic rogue"? That reason is the most hollow and laziest thing ever. If everything is going to end up reverting back to status quo because you can't mess with the classics, then why even bother? I shouldn't care about whatever Venom is doing because eventually we're going to go back to "We hate Spider-Man and must eat his brains!". Also, Jonah is apparently going to go back to demanding pictures of "that webbed menace!" because character development be damned. Hell, even now with Norman, they could do something interesting with him actually trying to not be a piece of ****, but no, he's almost assuredly going to go back to being the Green Goblin.



    This is honestly the only thing that's keeping me interested in the character. They seem reluctant to have him going back to completely being a villain so I dunno. Covers always lie after all
    For me Otto reverting to being a villain isn't a problem. The problem is the writers doesn't making it in a believable way. If something happened to Otto that made him realise that the "good path" isn't for him at all, and the only way things truly work for him is through him being a bad person, so be it.

    Just makes him realise that his true nature is evil, no matter how he tries to escape from that truth.

  10. #25
    Welcome Back Spidey Kurolegacy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9th. View Post
    That really sucks but it's the nature of comic books I guess.
    Yea but sometimes there’s nuance to it. Just look at Magneto, he may fall out from the X-Men but he never goes back to 60’s Magneto.

  11. #26
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurolegacy View Post
    Yea but sometimes there’s nuance to it. Just look at Magneto, he may fall out from the X-Men but he never goes back to 60’s Magneto.
    And when somebody does try going back there, like in Grant Morrison's New X-Men, as soon as that run ends, he's quickly restored to his anti-heroic/anti-villainous self.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  12. #27
    Incredible Member Aura Blaize's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rigel View Post
    For me Otto reverting to being a villain isn't a problem. The problem is the writers doesn't making it in a believable way. If something happened to Otto that made him realise that the "good path" isn't for him at all, and the only way things truly work for him is through him being a bad person, so be it.

    Just makes him realise that his true nature is evil, no matter how he tries to escape from that truth.

    See, maybe if they had done that route it wouldn't have been so infuriating. Or if they didn't give him a ton of character development. But he was seriously acting like a better person and they made it seem like it would stick. Then they pull a OMD on us.

    Ironically, the end to the first volume was a perfect way to do it. He willingly sacrifices himself because he knows Peter is better suited for the job.

    Volume 2 had him throw it all away for a pretty weak ass reason that made no real sense. It actually felt like they dumbed him down just to make his solution more plausible. And most importantly, it seemed to throw away all of the character development he acquired and just generally felt like we wasted our time over the course of that year.

    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    And when somebody does try going back there, like in Grant Morrison's New X-Men, as soon as that run ends, he's quickly restored to his anti-heroic/anti-villainous self.
    This is a pretty good example. Despite all the craziness over the decades, Magneto keeps his development and doesn't really go back to be a straight up villain. He was allowed to develop to the point that it would make no real sense for him to do so.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aura Blaize View Post
    See, maybe if they had done that route it wouldn't have been so infuriating. Or if they didn't give him a ton of character development. But he was seriously acting like a better person and they made it seem like it would stick. Then they pull a OMD on us.

    Ironically, the end to the first volume was a perfect way to do it. He willingly sacrifices himself because he knows Peter is better suited for the job.

    Volume 2 had him throw it all away for a pretty weak ass reason that made no real sense. It actually felt like they dumbed him down just to make his solution more plausible. And most importantly, it seemed to throw away all of the character development he acquired and just generally felt like we wasted our time over the course of that year.



    This is a pretty good example. Despite all the craziness over the decades, Magneto keeps his development and doesn't really go back to be a straight up villain. He was allowed to develop to the point that it would make no real sense for him to do so.
    I dislike vol 1 Sp0ck but that ending was perfect.
    But vol 2 sp0ck was actually a great character but that ending was terrible.

    If they got the character right like in vol 2 w/ the ending of 1 we'd be golden.

    Honestly though, a Spider-man 2 style sacrifice not unlike Sp0ck ending in vol 1 should have been his end.If they wanna use Ock again do a multiversal variant ala Gwen after 5-10 years, not a mainstay but a world where he got the body but didn't get Peter's memories.He would be the villain for his intro but then he would find out that he is capable of good and be a better hero to his homeworld.

    His homeworld would be like 616 but Avengers killed by him Omni Man style. Carlie, MJ was killed since they found out.May is still alive but unwell.

    His world still doesn't know who killed Avengers, etc.They still think Spider-man is a hero.This ock then makes a new team to handle the responsibilities of the Avengers.Story beats would be him seeing how much damage him and other super-villains have caused(something 616 Sp0ck should have had), difficulties in the change from hero to villain, the truth of Avengers murder coming out, kicked out of the team, owning up to it all, proving his redemption to the masses, etc.

    Slott's an Ock fanboy and didn't focus on the tough parts of being Spidey.Moreover he turned Peter into a man-child and then made it Peter's character flaw.None of this here.Ock should also find out how much crime peter really stopped and how even w/out gear he had means like friends w/ some ex-henchman he got out of the super-villain game and helped that give him tips.Also how much he helped people and not just fighting.And also the fact that Otto isn't a s*xual assulater would be important imo, which Slott feels is okay.Also how difficult it is to juggle the 2 lives.

    Superior as a concept is flawed because being Spider-man isn't easy, but it can work.Otto would prioritize being Spidey over Peter, which was important to Peter.Slott wanted otto to be better in all aspects and that's just an insult, moreover he ruined Peter's character by making him a man-child and then made it his "flaws".It just doesn't work.Vol 2 is a much better look at how to execute this concept.Sorry for the rant

    Tldr:-Superior vol 1 had a flawed execution but a great ending.Vol 2 had great execution but terrible ending.You can take best of both and when you want Doc Ock back he is from a multiverse where he is like an Omni man.No one knows Ock is Spidey, Ock doesn't have Peter's memories, He killed Avengers, MJ, etc.After his fight w/Peter and realization we get a solo where he tries to fix things on his world.There are ups and downs but he prevails.
    Last edited by Spiderfan001; 09-19-2021 at 02:19 AM.

  14. #29
    Incredible Member Aura Blaize's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfan001 View Post
    I dislike vol 1 Sp0ck but that ending was perfect.
    But vol 2 sp0ck was actually a great character but that ending was terrible.

    If they got the character right like in vol 2 w/ the ending of 1 we'd be golden.

    Honestly though, a Spider-man 2 style sacrifice not unlike Sp0ck ending in vol 1 should have been his end.If they wanna use Ock again do a multiversal variant ala Gwen after 5-10 years, not a mainstay but a world where he got the body but didn't get Peter's memories.He would be the villain for his intro but then he would find out that he is capable of good and be a better hero to his homeworld.

    His homeworld would be like 616 but Avengers killed by him Omni Man style. Carlie, MJ was killed since they found out.May is still alive but unwell.

    His world still doesn't know who killed Avengers, etc.They still think Spider-man is a hero.This ock then makes a new team to handle the responsibilities of the Avengers.Story beats would be him seeing how much damage him and other super-villains have caused(something 616 Sp0ck should have had), difficulties in the change from hero to villain, the truth of Avengers murder coming out, kicked out of the team, owning up to it all, proving his redemption to the masses, etc.

    Slott's an Ock fanboy and didn't focus on the tough parts of being Spidey.Moreover he turned Peter into a man-child and then made it Peter's character flaw.None of this here.Ock should also find out how much crime peter really stopped and how even w/out gear he had means like friends w/ some ex-henchman he got out of the super-villain game and helped that give him tips.Also how much he helped people and not just fighting.And also the fact that Otto isn't a s*xual assulater would be important imo, which Slott feels is okay.Also how difficult it is to juggle the 2 lives.

    Superior as a concept is flawed because being Spider-man isn't easy, but it can work.Otto would prioritize being Spidey over Peter, which was important to Peter.Slott wanted otto to be better in all aspects and that's just an insult, moreover he ruined Peter's character by making him a man-child and then made it his "flaws".It just doesn't work.Vol 2 is a much better look at how to execute this concept.Sorry for the rant

    Tldr:-Superior vol 1 had a flawed execution but a great ending.Vol 2 had great execution but terrible ending.You can take best of both and when you want Doc Ock back he is from a multiverse where he is like an Omni man.No one knows Ock is Spidey, Ock doesn't have Peter's memories, He killed Avengers, MJ, etc.After his fight w/Peter and realization we get a solo where he tries to fix things on his world.There are ups and downs but he prevails.
    An Alternate SpOck...hmmmm. That's a good idea. It could also set up a Superior vs Doc Ock type storyline. I want to say one of the mobile games teased that, but I dunno if anything came from it.

    Ironically, while Slott may have been an Ock fanboy, Gage wrote him the best. He wrote him as a man trying to redeem himself, even with all of his flaws whereas Slott wrote him mostly as a villain playing Spider-Man.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aura Blaize View Post
    An Alternate SpOck...hmmmm. That's a good idea. It could also set up a Superior vs Doc Ock type storyline. I want to say one of the mobile games teased that, but I dunno if anything came from it.

    Ironically, while Slott may have been an Ock fanboy, Gage wrote him the best. He wrote him as a man trying to redeem himself, even with all of his flaws whereas Slott wrote him mostly as a villain playing Spider-Man.
    Facts, Gage's Ock was amazing.I dislike Superior vol 1 a lot, I read all of it and all tie-ins and it wasn't worth it... until vol 2 w/Gage.Did they confirm editorial wanted the Mephisto thing?It felt very forced.
    Really hope if and when he's back, we get him written by Gage or someone who writers him like Gage did.

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