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  1. #136
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PyroFN View Post
    I understand that, but he was not helpless by any stretch, not to mention there is no way to properly gauge how powerful he still was after. It would be like trying to divide the power of any other cosmic being, which is nigh-impossible to calculate. If we want to be sticklers for accuracy, then we can say she did it to Knull while he was caught off-guard or weakened, but it doesn’t diminish the feats value really beyond maybe saying full-powered Knull would not be so easily taken.
    I never said he was helpess but we have to understand the sequence of events. From Issue 3, xavier was leading all the heroes in battle telepathically. it wasn't Jean in contact with Dylan. It was Xavier. That said, first Dylan attacked him weakening his defenses, allowing the heroes possessed to be freed, then the heroes started taking out his knull spawns further weakening him. These hits on him allowed Jean to do what she did. If we are to point to that feat we must be fair in the sequence of events and all that happened go knull. He wasn't fully powered, not even close but its still a nice showing for her.



    Last edited by butterflykyss; 09-23-2021 at 09:45 PM.
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO, THE OMEGA'S OMEGA, THE REGENT OF SOL!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  2. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by PyroFN View Post
    She wasnÂ’t channeling her power at all. At no point was her power being used to destroy those Sentinites or on any other individual while destroying the Sentinites. It is purely there to maintain a link between Trinary and either Gabby or X-23. Nothing else was stated that she used her powers for anything else in that situation. It is different. Her powers are still being employed, but only to maintain the link, which Cassandra states was preoccupying her entire focus. That is the explanation of the energy signature.

    I said another person’s mind. Not another monsterÂ’s mind. I will not reiterate the difference between an individual personÂ’s mind and a ravenous monsterÂ’s mind. Reread what I said about that because that is in no way similar to taking advantage of another personÂ’s weakness.

    I act like she wouldn’t because Jean has in-canon made stands against that route and was conflicted whenever she did. It is not in-character for her to look at another person’s individual weakness and use that for her individual benefit unless it were absolutely necessary to do so. Countless beyond countless examples of Jean Grey speaking up, getting angry, and felling guilt over taking away someone’s agency has been shown on multiple occasions. The interesting part about her character is dealing with this conflict, not her looking at it and going “well, if it’s for the greater good” like Xavier or Magneto do. She is a moral pillar int his regard and will not ignore the times she has made fuss over someone asking this of her on multiple occasions for the sake of saying, “well, she could and would if it came up”. Unless circumstances were truly dire, Jean would not take lightly the controlling or changing of another person’s mind.





    Jean didn't use ScottÂ’s weaknesses to cast out Apocalypse. She simply took his soul and separated it. That is it.

    Jean mind-wiping Frenzy is not an example of Jean casually taking advantage of another personÂ’s free will. Xavier was literally gonna be executed in Eve in Destruction. Thus, that entire plot was functioning under the perameters of there being no room for questioning moral conduct. A literally manÂ’s life, one who Jean cares about more than anyone aside from few, hanged in the balance based on her decisions. So your point is lost.
    Jean literally says they will use Gabby as a conduit. A conduit is a link or channel between two people; those 2 people being Jean and Trinary. If a psi link between Trinary and Gabby were all that was needed Jean would have referred to herself as the conduit. So it’s obvious she’s channeling her powers as well, otherwise Trinary could just link directly with Gabby thru Cerebro.



    The art also makes it clear Jean played a part in the channel since Trinary’s powers are blue while the pink is Jean’s signature color. When Trinary destroys the sentinels it shows Jean’s pink signature surrounded by Trinary’s bluish energy shooting out from cerebro which jives with Gabby being a conduit for them both.



    Frenzy was just an example of her taking away another person’s will. She didnt have to as there were other mutants available. Maybe it was the most convenient as it’s someone Magneto doesnt expect to turn on him. Regardless there were other options and Jean took the route she took.

    And I hate to break it to you but Jean takes away people’s free will all the time. It’s the very nature of telepathy. All those times she’s frozen people? That’s exploiting a human mind. Or when she was willing to mind wipe some reporters due to Emma’s outburst? That’s taking another person’s choice away from them. Putting people to sleep? That’s taking away their will.

    Let’s stop pretending Jean is some saint when she’s not. It may not be her first resort, but she doesn’t hesitate to be forceful with her powers.
    Last edited by Tank; 09-23-2021 at 10:13 PM.

  3. #138
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post




    As the second page in this post confirms ("Actually, that's where I come in. I don't think we've been introduced..."), Jean was communicating with and leading Dylan and the rest of the heroes throughout the sequence I posted in the previous page, including Dr. Strange, Cyclops, Invisible Woman, Human Torch, Thor, Namor, Spider-Man, and Storm.

    I would hope a person who has already needlessly expressed their dislike for Jean several times wouldn't also resort to lying and distracting from what's on-panel just to diminish her feats. That would be a new, special kind of low, lol.

  4. #139
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    And in case there is still confusion, here is Jean informing Strange, “I came as fast as I could.” (Why would Xavier have to say that if they were all aware he was linked with them? He was definitely linked with them up until Knull defeated and overtook them. That is when Jean came in.)


  5. #140
    Incredible Member Omega_DCD's Avatar
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    Jean is not against using personal details against someone telepathically, in a non life-or-death situation. She kinda does that here with Psylocke during their sparring match/lesson



    And let's not forget Jean threatening to make Emma psychically relive the death of her students



    ...a tactic Emma would go on to "borrow" against Carol Danvers

    Speaking of that issue, Jean is able to detect 3 different substances in Emma's mother's system. Through...a...memory


  6. #141
    Fantastic Member PyroFN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    I never said he was helpess but we have to understand the sequence of events. From Issue 3, xavier was leading all the heroes in battle telepathically. it wasn't Jean in contact with Dylan. It was Xavier. That said, first Dylan attacked him weakening his defenses, allowing the heroes possessed to be freed, then the heroes started taking out his knull spawns further weakening him. These hits on him allowed Jean to do what she did. If we are to point to that feat we must be fair in the sequence of events and all that happened go knull. He wasn't fully powered, not even close but its still a nice showing for her.
    Okay, first off, I’m not talking about what was going on with the heroes. I was focusing solely on Knull. The extra surrounding it is irrelevant to me.

    Second, there is no confirmation Xavier was the one leading the charge. If it were Charles Xavier, who was working with the heroes right in front of Dylan, Dylan would have recognized the man’s voice in his head. Dylan had no recognition of who was talking to him at all



    and the telepath mentions they arrived as quickly as they could, insinuating they just got to the battlefield. Xavier was nowhere near the battle and Jean seemingly disappears after issue 1 the duration of King in Black until issue 4. By all accounts, the evidence points to Jean, not to Charles.


  7. #142
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    Also, Jean telepathically summoning Silver Surfer as he flies through space makes me tingle. And the way he addresses her is sublime: “Jean. Worry not. I am here.” From King in Black #4 (2021):




  8. #143
    Fantastic Member PyroFN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega_DCD View Post
    Jean is not against using personal details against someone telepathically, in a non life-or-death situation. She kinda does that here with Psylocke during their sparring match/lesson



    And let's not forget Jean threatening to make Emma psychically relive the death of her students



    ...a tactic Emma would go on to "borrow" against Carol Danvers

    Speaking of that issue, Jean is able to detect 3 different substances in Emma's mother's system. Through...a...memory

    None of those examples are causal situations. The first is Jean training Psylocke for her to know about in psychic combat. There is no benefit to Jean in this situation and she doesn’t use it in a meaningful way beyond showing Psylocke a new move.

    The second example is happening while Jean is furious with Emma. This is not a casual situation where Jean takes a route. Jean is emotionally compromised in this situation, acting purely on her feelings, not her logic or morality. Jean’s actions in this situation does not label her as non-challantly using another person’s weaknesses. It is her in a situation she is not normally put in and she lost control of her feelings in that matter.

  9. #144
    Fantastic Member PyroFN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tank View Post
    Jean literally says they will use Gabby as a conduit. A conduit is a link or channel between two people; those 2 people being Jean and Trinary. If a psi link between Trinary and Gabby were all that was needed Jean would have referred to herself as the conduit. So it’s obvious she’s channeling her powers as well, otherwise Trinary could just link directly with Gabby thru Cerebro.



    The art also makes it clear Jean played a part in the channel since Trinary’s powers are blue while the pink is Jean’s signature color. When Trinary destroys the sentinels it shows Jean’s pink signature surrounded by Trinary’s bluish energy shooting out from cerebro which jives with Gabby being a conduit for them both.



    Frenzy was just an example of her taking away another person’s will. She didnt have to as there were other mutants available. Maybe it was the most convenient as it’s someone Magneto doesnt expect to turn on him. Regardless there were other options and Jean took the route she took.

    And I hate to break it to you but Jean takes away people’s free will all the time. It’s the very nature of telepathy. All those times she’s frozen people? That’s exploiting a human mind. Or when she was willing to mind wipe some reporters due to Emma’s outburst? That’s taking another person’s choice away from them. Putting people to sleep? That’s taking away their will.

    Let’s stop pretending Jean is some saint when she’s not. It may not be her first resort, but she doesn’t hesitate to be forceful with her powers.
    Gabby is the conduit because she will be dealing with the psychic pressure, not because Jean will channel her powers through Gabby. Jean can’t affect to machines with no AI. This is what the comic states Jean was doing: regulating the exposure and maintains a link. That is it. There is nothing else she is explicitly stated doing, so unless you can point to what Jean explains she is doing that isn’t either of these things,



    No, there weren’t other choices other than Frenzy because Frenzy was an acolyte and thus new the ways into Genosha. Jean had no time to find anyone else or do so in a different way. It was a life-or-death situation, not a casual instance.

    And don’t start playing semantics with me about the ethics of telepathy. You know for a fact I’m referring to changing a person fundamentally or finding their weaknesses, not psychic maneuvers used to incapacitate an opponent, which by the way we’re all in situations where either Jean’s life is in danger or the reputation of mutants was in jeopardy, which would cost many other lives.

    I am not pretending anything. I just showed you three different scenario’s of Jean feeling guilt, apologizing for encroaching on a mind, and finally a life-or-death situation where she hesitated because Hulk was asking her to make edits to his personality. Jean valuing a person’s right to exist as they are and their right of privacy is not being a saint. It’s being a good-person, which Jean is. What we really need to stop pretending to do is ignoring important character motivations that drive their decision-making in-story. Jean is a person that hesitates. She’s not always confident. It happens. Insecurities exist. It’s how she deals with them that makes her an interesting character, so we need to do is stop treating it like it is something Jean should be ashamed of.

  10. #145
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PyroFN View Post
    Okay, first off, I’m not talking about what was going on with the heroes. I was focusing solely on Knull. The extra surrounding it is irrelevant to me.

    Second, there is no confirmation Xavier was the one leading the charge. If it were Charles Xavier, who was working with the heroes right in front of Dylan, Dylan would have recognized the man’s voice in his head. Dylan had no recognition of who was talking to him at all

    [IMG]https://2.bp.blogspot.com/yVInvbrxOyvpi-evQXcTrKg3HOz2Yj_Lw0ntlufenVkM0wK63fz0Ohuequd7XB1M CzikhcsntwQgKqVok5QjUZNGnfiBMofgj7z2jTBHJCEVjOsGg2 rcrlvhN-F_E2v1AeyS32Paqw=s1600[/I

    and the telepath mentions they arrived as quickly as they could, insinuating they just got to the battlefield. Xavier was nowhere near the battle and Jean seemingly disappears after issue 1 the duration of King in Black until issue 4. By all accounts, the evidence points to Jean, not to Charles.

    you can't ignore the extra surrounding as that all plays to his strength and his subsequent weakening.

    I think your points are valid about Jean talking to Dylan so I stand corrected there. however in issue three it was stated Dylan was the key to freeing the heroes and defeating knull. it was he who hurt knull, he who freed the heroes, and both of these actions further weakened him allowing Jean to do what she did. he was not fully powered by the heroes from whom he siphoned additional power:

    this is when he was first weakened resulting in the heroes being freed. note he screams in pain,:



    after being freed storm and Thor attacked he falls and his body even begins to come a part:




    it was only then Jean attacked him. if she could have done tp blasted him with ease as some have implied she would have done it from the start before the other heroes became involved after being released from knull.
    Last edited by butterflykyss; 09-24-2021 at 07:49 AM.
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO, THE OMEGA'S OMEGA, THE REGENT OF SOL!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by PyroFN View Post
    Gabby is the conduit because she will be dealing with the psychic pressure, not because Jean will channel her powers through Gabby. Jean can’t affect to machines with no AI. This is what the comic states Jean was doing: regulating the exposure and maintains a link. That is it. There is nothing else she is explicitly stated doing, so unless you can point to what Jean explains she is doing that isn’t either of these things,



    No, there weren’t other choices other than Frenzy because Frenzy was an acolyte and thus new the ways into Genosha. Jean had no time to find anyone else or do so in a different way. It was a life-or-death situation, not a casual instance.

    And don’t start playing semantics with me about the ethics of telepathy. You know for a fact I’m referring to changing a person fundamentally or finding their weaknesses, not psychic maneuvers used to incapacitate an opponent, which by the way we’re all in situations where either Jean’s life is in danger or the reputation of mutants was in jeopardy, which would cost many other lives.

    I am not pretending anything. I just showed you three different scenario’s of Jean feeling guilt, apologizing for encroaching on a mind, and finally a life-or-death situation where she hesitated because Hulk was asking her to make edits to his personality. Jean valuing a person’s right to exist as they are and their right of privacy is not being a saint. It’s being a good-person, which Jean is. What we really need to stop pretending to do is ignoring important character motivations that drive their decision-making in-story. Jean is a person that hesitates. She’s not always confident. It happens. Insecurities exist. It’s how she deals with them that makes her an interesting character, so we need to do is stop treating it like it is something Jean should be ashamed of.
    Your interpretation goes against what the very definition of what a person being a conduit is AND against what the art shows. if Jean was not channeling her power thru Trinary or directly thru x23/Gabby, then we wouldnt see her pink energy signature shooting out of Cerebro at the same time.

    The very issue with telepathy is any sort of use of it is a violation of ethics. Whether you mind wipe someone so they forget or project an illusuon so they dont see what you want them to see, the implications are the same. The telepath violated a person’s mind and free will. Even casually reading someone’s mind which Jean has done.

    And you refuse to accept that Jean has shown before she will take over people’s minds/will if need be. And it’s not always the only solution. See Frenzy. She had plenty of other options. And in your examples, it doesn’t matter that she hesitated or apologized or whatever, she still did what had to be done.
    Last edited by Tank; 09-24-2021 at 07:51 AM.

  12. #147
    Incredible Member Omega_DCD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PyroFN View Post

    The second example is happening while Jean is furious with Emma. This is not a casual situation where Jean takes a route. Jean is emotionally compromised in this situation, acting purely on her feelings, not her logic or morality. Jean’s actions in this situation does not label her as non-challantly using another person’s weaknesses. It is her in a situation she is not normally put in and she lost control of her feelings in that matter.
    I disagree that Jean was emotionally compromised or not thinking logically, etc. Yes she was upset, but she moreso wanted to find truth and reason rather than exact punitive revenge, otherwise Emma would have ended up a pile of rubble long before Esme shot her with a diamond bullet. Jean even tells Emma she's not going to hurl bolts of psychic electricity at her. It was clinical and thorough in delving into the root cause in which Jean discovers the truth, the same truth Emma herself was forced to admit, that her whole "sex therapist" thing was bullshit and that she had actually fallen in love with Scott "bloody" Summers. Again, Jean was hurt/upset, but not irrationally so, nor was she out of control...Emma even accuses Jean of not having human emotions anymore.

    Anyway, back to matters of feats, also in that dame issue, at some point Jean seamlessly transitions from being inside Emma's mind, to Emma's thoughts instead being enfolded inside of Jean.

    In the X-Men Red Annual, she's in the mind of 3 other beings simultaneously, one of which is an animal consciousness, while still being fully present dealing with Black Bolt


  13. #148
    Mighty Member Sylarmax's Avatar
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    Xavier >Jean >Emma

  14. #149
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    As if Xavier would ever command Storm and Thor to "LIGHT IT UP!" That's so Jean having one of her fiery moments.


  15. #150
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega_DCD View Post
    I disagree that Jean was emotionally compromised or not thinking logically, etc. Yes she was upset, but she moreso wanted to find truth and reason rather than exact punitive revenge, otherwise Emma would have ended up a pile of rubble long before Esme shot her with a diamond bullet. Jean even tells Emma she's not going to hurl bolts of psychic electricity at her. It was clinical and thorough in delving into the root cause in which Jean discovers the truth, the same truth Emma herself was forced to admit, that her whole "sex therapist" thing was bullshit and that she had actually fallen in love with Scott "bloody" Summers. Again, Jean was hurt/upset, but not irrationally so, nor was she out of control...Emma even accuses Jean of not having human emotions anymore.

    Anyway, back to matters of feats, also in that dame issue, at some point Jean seamlessly transitions from being inside Emma's mind, to Emma's thoughts instead being enfolded inside of Jean.

    In the X-Men Red Annual, she's in the mind of 3 other beings simultaneously, one of which is an animal consciousness, while still being fully present dealing with Black Bolt

    As always, you provide such astute observations and interpretations. She really was clinically precise in that scene. She tempered herself appropriately. She also went on to save Emma's life, issues later. She was so transcendent and above it all.




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