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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by PyroFN View Post
    Eh. I can see your logic. It’s not for me though, since skill plays as much, if not a bigger role in psychic battles than raw power. (Unless you’re Uber powerful like Jean or Nate Grey)

    Emma Frost (written by Chris Claremont back in the 2000’s era) establishes the rule best.

    Then another question would be who are the most skilled. You would think Xavier but since the 2000s X-men, all bets are off.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by taozen View Post
    Marvel basically has no magic system. Magicians can basically do anything which is why so many writers depower Dr. Strange at the start of their series runs.
    Sadly true. Back in the Marvel Handbook days of the '80s, it was all codified into three different categories of magic, and mages had a finite and depletable personal reservoir of power *or* could tap into extradimensional entities like Cytorrak or Dormammu (but anyone not the Sorcerer Supreme might have to pay a price for those bargains, or find Cytorrak or Dormammu or whomever taking the wheel...).

    Plus various magical folk like Brother Voodoo or Daimon Hellstrom weren't full blown sorcerers like Dr. Strange and had some very specific magical powers, but now everybody who has any ties to 'magic' can do just about anything. Until, because it would upset the plot, they mysteriously can't... And while I love the characters Nico Minoru and Wiccan, those two explicitly 'do anything mages' are 100% part of the problem, IMO.

    Telepathy is hardly the only thing that's blossomed into wild territories since the Marvel Handbook days.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by taozen View Post
    Then another question would be who are the most skilled. You would think Xavier but since the 2000s X-men, all bets are off.
    PyroFN and I may still disagree, but in terms of skill, I would rank the top three as:

    1. Jean
    2. Xavier
    3. Emma

    Hickman noted the key difference between Xavier and Emma on one end and Jean on the other. Mind you, I feel the fact that Jean isn't "protective" of herself is one of the key reasons why she is more skillful than Xavier and Emma (she's already naturally more powerful than both, but she was born that way). When you aren't preoccupied with being "closed off and cold" and protecting yourself and are willing to "let it all in," your ability to penetrate is much more effective. After all, being completely open telepathically is a double-edged sword for those who dare attack the telepath seemingly letting them in. Once you're inside, you're inside their mind...:


  4. #94
    Incredible Member superjosh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    PyroFN and I may still disagree, but in terms of skill, I would rank the top three as:

    1. Jean
    2. Xavier
    3. Emma

    Hickman noted the key difference between Xavier and Emma on one end and Jean on the other. Mind you, I feel the fact that Jean isn't "protective" of herself is one of the key reasons why she is more skillful than Xavier and Emma (she's already naturally more powerful than both, but she was born that way). When you aren't preoccupied with being "closed off and cold" and protecting yourself and are willing to "let it all in," your ability to penetrate is much more effective. After all, being completely open telepathically is a double-edged sword for those who dare attack the telepath seemingly letting them in. Once you're inside, you're inside their mind...:

    Thanks for the quote! I do like the way Hickman really thinks things through. He has such an interesting brain lol.

    Jean is definitely the most powerful when you combine raw power (omega) and skill. Xavier can probably outdo her if they were attempting a telepathic “task” or something, but if they were battling and Jean was pushed to her limits I think she could potentially destroy him.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by PyroFN View Post
    I disagree wholeheartedly. None of them have the feats to compete with Jean. Moondragon at best would be below Sinister in my tier list, due to her terrible low ends.
    You should read guardians of the galaxy. Moondragon has been doing some magnificent top tier tp feats.

  6. #96
    Fantastic Member PyroFN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taozen View Post
    Then another question would be who are the most skilled. You would think Xavier but since the 2000s X-men, all bets are off.
    Experience is Xavier, but actual skill showings go to Emma. She has more outside the box thinking type feats than Xavier overall in my opinion. It’s not a knock on anyone else on her calibers skill level, but I don’t expect any telepath to think of things like using Toad, a non-telepath, as a link to Cerebra,



    Or use their knowledge of Cyclops brain to completely shut down an entire army,



    Or make a completely new psychic maneuver (despite how slow it is) that completely crumples an Omega Level Mutant when it is given time to fester and infect their mind,


  7. #97
    Fantastic Member PyroFN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevlon View Post
    You should read guardians of the galaxy. Moondragon has been doing some magnificent top tier tp feats.
    I am. It’s the only way I can accurately rate her as a psi. Her feats are good, but she is not among the top psi’s, despite how blown out of proportion people make her feats. Back then, people rated her above Xavier based on the fact that she was spreading her influence across an entire planet, ignoring the fact that said planet only contained millions of people, whereas Xavier had collected the positive mental impression from billions on two occasions.

    Nowadays, she got a boost in power, yet she is completely crumbling to Knull’s influence where Jean is completely fine, yet Moondragon is supposedly gonna be rated above her? I rate Moondragon highly, but I am also realistic about her showings and they are not anything the top tier telepaths aren’t capable of.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by PyroFN View Post
    Experience is Xavier, but actual skill showings go to Emma. She has more outside the box thinking type feats than Xavier overall in my opinion. ItÂ’s not a knock on anyone else on her calibers skill level...

    but I donÂ’t expect any telepath to think of things like using Toad, a non-telepath, as a link to Cerebra,
    While impressive, these feats do not indicate that Emma is more skillful than Jean. In fact, Jean has accomplished very similar, though greater, feats of skill.

    I will be responding to each instance you posted, so expect a couple more posts.

    Regarding using non-telepaths, I do not believe Jean has taken over the mind/body of one to access Cerebro or Cerebra. Still, I think that has more to do with not being placed in a position to do so, along with her moral and ethical code, than anything else. If she wanted to take over the mind and body of a conscious non-telepath, it is clear that she could do it. After all, she did take over Emma's body, albeit a telepath, transferring her telekinesis to it and effectively using Emma's body to defend herself and escape her enemies. In either case, for years, she has both used and combined the powers of nontelepathic minds to do things she has no innate or learned skills or knowledge to do, which is a little more difficult than simply taking control of someone's mind:





    Last edited by Mercury; 09-21-2021 at 04:05 PM.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    I would say telepathy trumps magic only because, in order to use magic, a magician needs to be able to use their mind. If a telepath acts swiftly enough, especially a telepath with the level of power and skill of Jean, Xavier, or Emma, they could subjugate a magician and even incapacitate them rather quikcly.
    But writers can just create some spell that gives the mystic telepathic powers like Scarlett Witch. Actually Scarlett Witch has just become Jean Grey in the MCU. Her power signature is even the same color. I not saying one is better but how in the Marvel Universe, there is no magic system in their power use. For example in a book i was reading, a group of magicians used metal to create spells. Different metals allowed them to create a specific spells, like touching copper would allow them to create fire. The magicians would keep metal coins and put it in their mouths to work the spell. That's a specified system with real limitations. Magicians, like Strange, can basically do anything the writer wants. Strange can create spell that give him the same psychic shielding as magneto's and Juggy's helmet. And another to read minds and project thoughts, ect. He can say "I want an magical armor to give me the strength of Colossus." Bam. Done. But that is another topic altogether. . .
    Last edited by taozen; 09-22-2021 at 02:44 PM.

  10. #100
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    Or use their knowledge of Cyclops brain to completely shut down an entire army,

    She has not been put in a position to do this, though I am sure she would handle it with aplomb, but she has used her knowledge of Scott's mind, gained through their psi-link, to both disrupt the bond with and exorcise Apocalypse from him:




  11. #101
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    While impressive, these feats do not indicate that Emma is more skillful than Jean. In fact, Jean has accomplished very similar, though greater, feats of skill.

    I will be responding to each instance you posted, so expect a couple more posts.

    Regarding using non-telepaths, I do not believe Jean has taken over the mind/body of one to access Cerebro or Cerebra. Still, I think that has more to do with her moral and ethical code than anything else. If she wanted to take over the mind and body of a conscious non-telepath, it is clear that she could do it. After all, she did take over Emma's body, albeit a telepath, transferring her telekinesis to it and effectively using Emma's body to defend herself and escape her enemies. In either case, for years, she has both used and combined the powers of nontelepathic minds to do things she has no innate or learned skills or knowledge to do, which is a little more difficult than simply taking control of someone's mind:

    Also, this was at a time that many believe Jean to be weak (she was not). It is before the Phoenix.

    Jean not only thought of the plan (showcasing her intelligence), but put it into action. She did not ask. She acted. In order to save everyone's lives.
    [Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El 10-15-2020 12:32 PM]


    "Jason Aaron should know there is already a winner of the Phoenix Force and his name is Phoenixx9."

  12. #102
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    Or make a completely new psychic maneuver (despite how slow it is) that completely crumples an Omega Level Mutant when it is given time to fester and infect their mind,
    She was able to awaken, communicate with, link, and coordinate the moves of several characters (including Thor, Storm, Dr. Strange, and Spiderman) both assaulted by and under the influence of Knull, the Symbiote God, without being detected, before revealing herself to and ransacking his mind. (I really do which I could post all 8+ pages of her work in this issue because they are a testament to her unparalleled skill.)





    Last edited by Mercury; 09-21-2021 at 04:06 PM.

  13. #103
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    To be clear, Jean could easily take over anyone's mind, though her choosing not to is certainly not indicative of a lack of skill. Perhaps her reticence to do so has to do with the fact that her mind has been taken over, duplicated, and manipulated in the past.

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by taozen View Post
    But writers can just create some spell that gives the mystic telepathic powers like Scarlett Witch. Actually Scarlett Witch has just become Jean Grey in the MCU. Her power signature is even the same color.
    Don't remind me. This keeps me from fully enjoying her portrayals in the MCU, though I still love them. Just yesterday, a fan on Twitter sent me an article from Brazil in which the director of WandaVision referred to Wanda as like "a Phoenix rising from the ashes." I had to breathe, lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by taozen View Post
    But writers can just create some spell that gives the mystic telepathic powers like Scarlett Witch...I not saying one is better but how in the Marvel Universe, there is no magic system in their power use. For example in a book i was reading, a group of magicians used metal to create spells. Different metals allowed them to create a specific spells, like touching copper would allow them to create fire. The magicians would keep metal coins and put it in their mouths to work the spell. That's a specified system with real limitations. Magicians, like Strange, can basically do anything the writer wants. Strange can create spell that give him the same psychic shielding as magneto's and Juggy's helmet. And another to read minds and project thoughts, ect. He I want an magical armor to give me the strength of Colossus. Bam. Done. But that is another topic altogether. . .
    This is true. However, Jean is the most effectively powerful telepath on earth (I want to say existence) and I believe her telepathy can verge on the predictive due to her ability to tap the unconscious thoughts, feelings, and intentions of others, i.e., she can know what someone intends to do or is on the verge of doing and act accordingly. I'm not well-versed in the Marvel magicians, but if it's true that they need to use their hands to perform magic, her telekinesis could easily solve that.

  15. #105
    Fantastic Member PyroFN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    While impressive, these feats do not indicate that Emma is more skillful than Jean. In fact, Jean has accomplished very similar, though greater, feats of skill.

    I will be responding to each instance you posted, so expect a couple more posts.

    Regarding using non-telepaths, I do not believe Jean has taken over the mind/body of one to access Cerebro or Cerebra. Still, I think that has more to do with not being placed in a position to do so, along with her moral and ethical code, than anything else. If she wanted to take over the mind and body of a conscious non-telepath, it is clear that she could do it. After all, she did take over Emma's body, albeit a telepath, transferring her telekinesis to it and effectively using Emma's body to defend herself and escape her enemies. In either case, for years, she has both used and combined the powers of nontelepathic minds to do things she has no innate or learned skills or knowledge to do, which is a little more difficult than simply taking control of someone's mind:





    Okay, but it’s not the fact that she was mind-controlling someone. It’s the fact that she used Toad to link her powers to Cerebra. Jean can theoretically replicate it based on her transferring her telekinesis, but there is no reason Jean would ever think to do this. Thus, this skill set is not gonna be something Jean knows how to do. I am never a fan of assuming someone knows how to do something unless there is a clear basis for it.

    Jean has the capability of transferring her powers, but why would Jean think of controlling someone in this way? A good chunk about acquiring new skills is in what you learn, experience, and how you problem solve. There is no way Jean would approach a problem and think to control someone to put on a Cerebro helmet for Jean to funnel her powers into it and use it through them. That is what I mean. Thus, Emma gains that skillset by thinking outside the box.

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