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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    It's unfair that he's getting harassed.

    He didn't make the decision. He is only writing the story. Doing his job.

    The whole Oracle and ableism discourse has become so tainted by bias and virtue signalling.

    I struggle to believe that all of those calling for babs to be Paralysed again do so in good faith. Representation is important but to paralyse on purpose? That doesn't sit right with me.

    Not to mention that how most of those loudly advocating for Babs as Oracle also champion Cass or Steph as batgirl.

    there's also the fact that Babs has walking and in the role of Batgirl for sometime now. Some were unhappy about that but it didn't turn into the current storm we have.

    The current storm started after DC teased Batgirls Cass and steph and Babs as Oracle only to reveal later that Babs was still mobile and was to function as both Oracle and Batgirl.

    What are these fans really upset about and if they cared so much about representation for disabled readers then why haven't they been fiercely fighting DC's ableism from day one when Oracle got better?
    From what I remember, Alan Moore said it was a mistake in The Killing Joke. It's why he doesn't consider it his best work.
    If it's on Twitter, then Twitter discourse is dreadful anyway.

  2. #47
    Amazing Member Ginkasa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    What are these fans really upset about and if they cared so much about representation for disabled readers then why haven't they been fiercely fighting DC's ableism from day one when Oracle got better?
    Hard to accurately account for the collective opinion of something as large and nebulous as internet fandom, but there was definitely backlash in 2011 against Barbara being cured because it removed such a prominent representative of a particular community. I don't recall "ableism" being a common word at the time, but I'm sure that was the gist.

    Regarding this comic issue specifically, it kind of just read to me like any other "Nightwing getting pulled into the big Bat event" book. Having to rush to Gotham from Bludhaven. Token conversation about how its fine he's left Bludhaven. Cool reunion between the Dynamic Duo. Etc.

    That said I thought it was overall well done for what it was. The Dynamic Duo scene in particular was rote, but well done rote if that makes sense. Regarding Batgirl, I think her entire thing is just so complicated I don't know there's a particular right answer. I don't think it was great she was paralyzed in the first place, but I think it was awesome how important and effective she became after. I'm not a part of the disabled community so I won't pretend to speak for them, but I appreciated having a differently abled super-hero be so prominent. That is to say, I wasn't a fan myself when she was "cured" in the New 52, but now that we're here I like seeing her as both Oracle and being able to go out as Batgirl as well. Its an interesting dynamic.
    Last edited by Ginkasa; 09-22-2021 at 10:16 AM. Reason: Adding more thoughts on the issue itself

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkasa View Post
    Hard to accurately account for the collective opinion of something as large and nebulous as internet fandom, but there was definitely backlash in 2011 against Barbara being cured because it removed such a prominent representative of a particular community. I don't recall "ableism" being a common word at the time, but I'm sure that was the gist.

    Regarding this comic issue specifically, it kind of just read to me like any other "Nightwing getting pulled into the big Bat event" book. Having to rush to Gotham from Bludhaven. Token conversation about how its fine he's left Bludhaven. Cool reunion between the Dynamic Duo. Etc.

    That said I thought it was overall well done for what it was. The Dynamic Duo scene in particular was rote, but well done rote if that makes sense. Regarding Batgirl, I think her entire thing is just so complicated I don't know there's a particular right answer. I don't think it was great she was paralyzed in the first place, but I think it was awesome how important and effective she became after. I'm not a part of the disabled community so I won't pretend to speak for them, but I appreciated having a differently abled super-hero be so prominent. That is to say, I wasn't a fan myself when she was "cured" in the New 52, but now that we're here I like seeing her as both Oracle and being able to go out as Batgirl as well. Its an interesting dynamic.
    It’s like the Jon Kent situation, DC can’t just go back on it

  4. #49
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    What are these fans really upset about and if they cared so much about representation for disabled readers then why haven't they been fiercely fighting DC's ableism from day one when Oracle got better?
    Where was the outcry when DC did a BoP movie with out her. Hell where is the outcry for actual Oracle content. The disingenuous Oracle support frustrates me to no end. They want her in the chair, but don’t actually give a crap with what they do or don’t do with her.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 09-22-2021 at 11:39 AM.

  5. #50
    Astonishing Member Drako's Avatar
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    This issue was good, nothing special.
    This Fear State setting it's pretty boring.

  6. #51
    Mighty Member SixSpeedSamurai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drako View Post
    This issue was good, nothing special.
    This Fear State setting it's pretty boring.
    I didn't care for the art much, but overall, not a bad issue. Bab's new costume is better than the Sean Murphy designed one at least. The first New 52 suit is still her best.
    Pulls: Batman, Detective Comics, Star Wars, Crossover, Something is Killing the Children, Flash, Nightwing, Home Sick Pilots, Nice House on the Lake, and Iron Man.
    My runs: Batman #230-, and Detective #424, 427-428, 430-

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by SixSpeedSamurai View Post
    I didn't care for the art much, but overall, not a bad issue. Bab's new costume is better than the Sean Murphy designed one at least. The first New 52 suit is still her best.
    Babs' costume would apparently be on the 1:25 variant cover of Nightwing 85.nightwing 85 variant cover 2.jpg
    Last edited by Lal; 09-23-2021 at 06:50 AM.

  8. #53
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SixSpeedSamurai View Post
    I didn't care for the art much, but overall, not a bad issue. Bab's new costume is better than the Sean Murphy designed one at least. The first New 52 suit is still her best.
    No argument there. Well, that and her Three Jokers costume.

  9. #54
    Astonishing Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    I didn't really consider it a new costume, it looks like a slightly different stylistic representation of the Burnside costume. The only real difference is that it has a more Batman like cowl in comparison to the more open eye holes in the Burnside mask and a longer cape...both both of those differences could just be down to the artist's style; it's certainly more "on book" than say Kelley Jones' depiction of Batman which despite its stylistic variance from the main title costume has never been labeled a new costume design.
    Looking for a friendly place to discuss comic books? Try The Classic Comics Forum!

  10. #55
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    I didn't really consider it a new costume, it looks like a slightly different stylistic representation of the Burnside costume. The only real difference is that it has a more Batman like cowl in comparison to the more open eye holes in the Burnside mask and a longer cape...both both of those differences could just be down to the artist's style; it's certainly more "on book" than say Kelley Jones' depiction of Batman which despite its stylistic variance from the main title costume has never been labeled a new costume design.
    It looks like a more professional and less "kiddy" version of the Burnside suit.

    To be honest I don't really get this need for Babs to wear "practical" costumes.

  11. #56
    Astonishing Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    It looks like a more professional and less "kiddy" version of the Burnside suit.

    To be honest I don't really get this need for Babs to wear "practical" costumes.
    Like I said, that comes across as just being the artist's style than a real attempt at a redesign.
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