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  1. #46
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Perhaps the main solo heroes should be treated more as 'guest stars' in the team book rather than getting all the focus.



    That's possible. Nostalgia seems to be an overriding factor but to me, the old FF isn't much to be nostalgic about. Part of the problem is the team is too static, whereas X-Men and Avengers bring in new heroes, although Avengers currently seems to have a problem of focusing on the main solo guys at others' expense. But at least the Avengers have new diverse characters like Robbie Reyes. FF doesn't have anyone like that.
    Nostalgia may not apply to you personally, but it does to many FF writers and readers. Also as another poster said, the Future Foundation was the natural evolution of the team that solved that problem. But sadly, it was stupidly erased due to nostalgia and "returning the status quo". It was the dumbest thing to do.

    But that is just one problem with the FF. Another is the over focus on Reed to the detriment of the other characters and him being the one to always solve the problem to save the day. The lack of development of Sue and Johnny, and reusing the same plots over and over again. No one on such a small team should be as underdeveloped as Sue and Johnny Storm.

    All of these factors play into the team seeming dated because it's not changed since the 60s. You may get a run or story arc that differs, but it never lasts.
    Last edited by Crimz; 09-20-2021 at 12:06 PM.
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  2. #47
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    Nostalgia may not apply to you personally, but it does to many FF writers and readers. Also as another poster said, the Future Foundation was the natural evolution of the team that solved that problem. But sadly, it was stupidly erased due to nostalgia and "returning the status quo". It was the dumbest thing to do.

    But that is just one problem with the FF. Another is the over focus on Reed to the detriment of the other characters and him being the one to always solve the problem to save the day. The lack of development of Sue and Johnny, and reusing the same plots over and over again. No one on such a small team should be as underdeveloped as Sue and Johnny Storm.

    All of these factors play into the team seeming dated because it's not changed since the 60s. You may get a run or story arc that differs, but it never lasts.
    Also worth pointing out that even before Future Foundation, we did have F4 members leaving for a while for others to take their place temporarily (Stuff like Reed and Sue deciding to have a normal life with Franklin), so even the idea of the team itself being only about the 4 isn't exactly the case, and with Future Foundation, outrigh replacing anyone isn't even a need anymore... But toxic nostalgia is really destructive, and doesn't allow for organic growth, I'm sure X-fans who put up with the nonsense going on before Hickman showed up, and/or who put with the 90's runs, know a thing or two about that .

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by babyblob View Post
    One thing I do like about the Fantastic Four is that they didnt have that rotating roster that The Avengers and Xmen have. You could learn about the 4, watch them evolve and come to care about them in a way that you couldnt with the others. The Xmen have so many mutants now a days it is hard to keep track of who and who is doing what. At least it was like that for a long time, not sure about the Karoka era as I have only read a handful of iussies. But man for the longest time there always seemed to be a new mutant popping up or a new Xteam forming.
    I guess that's the opposite of how I feel. Seeing these same exact people never change isn't as interesting at the more expansive and diverse casts of X-Men and Avengers

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    Nostalgia may not apply to you personally, but it does to many FF writers and readers. Also as another poster said, the Future Foundation was the natural evolution of the team that solved that problem. But sadly, it was stupidly erased due to nostalgia and "returning the status quo". It was the dumbest thing to do.

    But that is just one problem with the FF. Another is the over focus on Reed to the detriment of the other characters and him being the one to always solve the problem to save the day. The lack of development of Sue and Johnny, and reusing the same plots over and over again. No one on such a small team should be as underdeveloped as Sue and Johnny Storm.

    All of these factors play into the team seeming dated because it's not changed since the 60s. You may get a run or story arc that differs, but it never lasts.
    I think the excessive focus on Reed makes the other team members look useless. And Sue wasn't really developed well in the old comics, so nostalgia really doesn't help her.

  4. #49
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Also worth pointing out that even before Future Foundation, we did have F4 members leaving for a while for others to take their place temporarily (Stuff like Reed and Sue deciding to have a normal life with Franklin), so even the idea of the team itself being only about the 4 isn't exactly the case, and with Future Foundation, outrigh replacing anyone isn't even a need anymore... But toxic nostalgia is really destructive, and doesn't allow for organic growth, I'm sure X-fans who put up with the nonsense going on before Hickman showed up, and/or who put with the 90's runs, know a thing or two about that .
    Yeah they did switch up the roster from time to time and sometimes it worked really well. Like She Hulk replacing Ben was great and the time Reed was missing so Sue became leader.
    Toxic nostalgia is the right term for it because the current run removing the Future Foundation for no reason was big mistake that benefited no one and regressed the team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I guess that's the opposite of how I feel. Seeing these same exact people never change isn't as interesting at the more expansive and diverse casts of X-Men and Avengers



    I think the excessive focus on Reed makes the other team members look useless. And Sue wasn't really developed well in the old comics, so nostalgia really doesn't help her.
    Nostalgia is big issue Marvel in general, but the Avengers and X-Men can forego this a bit with changing the roster, something the FF can't do as much especially with the Future Foundation gone.

    Nostalgia doesn't benefit the team as whole but particularly Sue and Johnny. It leads to Sue being wallpaper and treated like a supporting character instead of one of the leads. It's the reason why she so underdeveloped for a character that's been around for 60 years. And for Johnny it leads to repetitive storylines and no real change or development.
    I think these things are the reason why Avengers and X-Men have overtaken them in popularity. There is nothing wrong with the concept of the FF but nostalgia and the "status quo" negatively effects the FF the most.
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  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    Yeah they did switch up the roster from time to time and sometimes it worked really well. Like She Hulk replacing Ben was great and the time Reed was missing so Sue became leader.
    Toxic nostalgia is the right term for it because the current run removing the Future Foundation for no reason was big mistake that benefited no one and regressed the team.



    Nostalgia is big issue Marvel in general, but the Avengers and X-Men can forego this a bit with changing the roster, something the FF can't do as much especially with the Future Foundation gone.

    Nostalgia doesn't benefit the team as whole but particularly Sue and Johnny. It leads to Sue being wallpaper and treated like a supporting character instead of one of the leads. It's the reason why she so underdeveloped for a character that's been around for 60 years. And for Johnny it leads to repetitive storylines and no real change or development.
    I think these things are the reason why Avengers and X-Men have overtaken them in popularity. There is nothing wrong with the concept of the FF but nostalgia and the "status quo" negatively effects the FF the most.
    Yeah, why do I as a read want to see a non-diverse team that acts like a 50s nuclear family, when it's so problematic? Sue as wallpaper is a disservice to female characters. I can read X-Men or Avengers or even Spider-Man because they have spin-offs and multiple books with different, new and diverse characters. Why would I dump that to see Reed neglect Sue because 'smart = lack of emotion,' or Ben complain for the 100th time about being a rock? Future Foundation sounds like a good way to rejuvenate this franchise but somehow it's a no-go

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    I "liked" Busiek's Avengers but I honestly didn't love it.

    At some points it was over-wordy (i think he was trying to harken back to earlier days) and I wasn't crazy how Thor was portrayed at times..he was too darn weak.

    It's one of the problems when the top characters are on the Avengers team, their depiction can always be a bit of a problem.
    From what I remember it was still 10x better than how Aaron handled Thor in Avengers. And he used Cap and Iron Man well in my opinion. He did give us one of the most iconic Thor scenes:



    I'd personally take wordy over decompressed if only because it seems to develop the characters and plots better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Also worth pointing out that even before Future Foundation, we did have F4 members leaving for a while for others to take their place temporarily (Stuff like Reed and Sue deciding to have a normal life with Franklin), so even the idea of the team itself being only about the 4 isn't exactly the case, and with Future Foundation, outrigh replacing anyone isn't even a need anymore... But toxic nostalgia is really destructive, and doesn't allow for organic growth, I'm sure X-fans who put up with the nonsense going on before Hickman showed up, and/or who put with the 90's runs, know a thing or two about that .
    I think it's fine to switch out the core four every now and then but it will probably always go back to them in the end.

  7. #52
    Astonishing Member From The Shadows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LAWtoyoto 432 View Post
    Before the MCU start, there are some people say that only Spidey, FF and X-Men are the top franchise for Marvel. It doesn't make sense since 'The Avengers' is also a big brand for Marvel but doesn't get the same attention like the latter. Even the Avengers has a strong popular franchise since the 80's. And some people say Iron Man is not well known before the MCU. What is going on actually?
    It doesn't make sense to me because I didn't realize The Avengers wasn't popular like all those teams. Having most off the classics and heavy hitters at one point and even in later variations. Spidey and X-Men being just a bit more popular. But the Avengers aren't so pathetic... that it can't have films right? Thats ludicrous. And it was proven quite obviously that it could. That really says it. I don't know about the FF being any more popular than The Avengers at all. I think it was just because they are considered the first family of Marvel and there is some bias.

    ETA: It did have tons of fans in the 80's, like you said, even when it was Monica and Starfox etc. So it has staying power obviously too.
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  8. #53
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Yeah, why do I as a read want to see a non-diverse team that acts like a 50s nuclear family, when it's so problematic? Sue as wallpaper is a disservice to female characters. I can read X-Men or Avengers or even Spider-Man because they have spin-offs and multiple books with different, new and diverse characters. Why would I dump that to see Reed neglect Sue because 'smart = lack of emotion,' or Ben complain for the 100th time about being a rock? Future Foundation sounds like a good way to rejuvenate this franchise but somehow it's a no-go
    Even the view of them being a nuclear family is one based on a weird rose tinted view of the past comics. They weren't a nuclear family at all, they were a found family and a pretty dysfunctional one at that. But the view that they were always this nuclear family erases all the nuance and rough edges of how they really were and replaces it with this ill-fitting characature of the FF as a "classic" family. It's a problem I have with the current run where the family dynamic is so basic and boring.
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  9. #54
    Extraordinary Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    Even the view of them being a nuclear family is one based on a weird rose tinted view of the past comics. They weren't a nuclear family at all, they were a found family and a pretty dysfunctional one at that. But the view that they were always this nuclear family erases all the nuance and rough edges of how they really were and replaces it with this ill-fitting characature of the FF as a "classic" family. It's a problem I have with the current run where the family dynamic is so basic and boring.
    I think they mean cosmic rays=Nuclear
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  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by From The Shadows View Post
    It doesn't make sense to me because I didn't realize The Avengers wasn't popular like all those teams. Having most off the classics and heavy hitters at one point and even in later variations. Spidey and X-Men being just a bit more popular. But the Avengers aren't so pathetic... that it can't have films right? Thats ludicrous. And it was proven quite obviously that it could. That really says it. I don't know about the FF being any more popular than The Avengers at all. I think it was just because they are considered the first family of Marvel and there is some bias.

    ETA: It did have tons of fans in the 80's, like you said, even when it was Monica and Starfox etc. So it has staying power obviously too.
    I've come into comics more recently than others but I've never thought of F4 as more popular than Avengers. I don't think they have been the most popular since the 80s

    But the success of the Avengers in the last 2 decades shoes to me how any almost team can be popular and good with enough support.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    Even the view of them being a nuclear family is one based on a weird rose tinted view of the past comics. They weren't a nuclear family at all, they were a found family and a pretty dysfunctional one at that. But the view that they were always this nuclear family erases all the nuance and rough edges of how they really were and replaces it with this ill-fitting characature of the FF as a "classic" family. It's a problem I have with the current run where the family dynamic is so basic and boring.
    Even their dysfunction was problematic. I've never really liked Reed and Sue as a couple.

  11. #56
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    Even the view of them being a nuclear family is one based on a weird rose tinted view of the past comics. They weren't a nuclear family at all, they were a found family and a pretty dysfunctional one at that. But the view that they were always this nuclear family erases all the nuance and rough edges of how they really were and replaces it with this ill-fitting characature of the FF as a "classic" family. It's a problem I have with the current run where the family dynamic is so basic and boring.
    I think the point of it is that they were a Found Family that grew into being a true family in the truest sense over time.

  12. #57
    Extraordinary Member babyblob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I think the excessive focus on Reed makes the other team members look useless. And Sue wasn't really developed well in the old comics, so nostalgia really doesn't help her.
    I dont like her blind loyalty to him. The things she overs looks for the sake of love is extreme. He does some of the worst stuff in all of Marvel in the name of science or the greater good etc.. yet she is more loyal to him then Harley Quinn was to The Joker. it is really my biggest issue with the FF.
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  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by babyblob View Post
    I dont like her blind loyalty to him. The things she overs looks for the sake of love is extreme. He does some of the worst stuff in all of Marvel in the name of science or the greater good etc.. yet she is more loyal to him then Harley Quinn was to The Joker. it is really my biggest issue with the FF.
    Exactly. Normally I'm all for stable couples, but they have to be non-toxic and egalitarian, which Reed & Sue often aren't. I'm not even sure what her personality is supposed to be tbh. Really the whole team should give Reed the finger

    And to a lesser extent I think Johnny is a jerk to Ben

  14. #59
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    It depends on the writer, a lot, I think.

    I like how Waid wrote the FF's family dynamic.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    Yeah they did switch up the roster from time to time and sometimes it worked really well. Like She Hulk replacing Ben was great and the time Reed was missing so Sue became leader.
    Toxic nostalgia is the right term for it because the current run removing the Future Foundation for no reason was big mistake that benefited no one and regressed the team.



    Nostalgia is big issue Marvel in general, but the Avengers and X-Men can forego this a bit with changing the roster, something the FF can't do as much especially with the Future Foundation gone.

    Nostalgia doesn't benefit the team as whole but particularly Sue and Johnny. It leads to Sue being wallpaper and treated like a supporting character instead of one of the leads. It's the reason why she so underdeveloped for a character that's been around for 60 years. And for Johnny it leads to repetitive storylines and no real change or development.
    I think these things are the reason why Avengers and X-Men have overtaken them in popularity. There is nothing wrong with the concept of the FF but nostalgia and the "status quo" negatively effects the FF the most.
    I can agree about this statement especially for Johnny Storm. In 'Uncanny Avengers' run, he has shown a lot of mature development during his interaction with the Avengers. Moreover, he seem to get along well with some of his teammates including his relationship with Rogue, Synapse and Doctor Voodoo. But ever since when FF return, all his character personality has thrown out of the window and revert to his old ways again. Which is why Johnny is better off being the FF team for a moment.

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