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  1. #136
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    There's not an inherent problem but being an all-White, never changing team doesn't really help diversity that much, and comics could do more to be more diverse. And comics in general have a problem where only White heroes get families.
    The whole argument about them being never changing doesn't really work when they did get other team members once in a while, and, y'know, Future Foundation is a thing.

    IIRC I already pointed out BP. And yes, it took Spider-Man a long time, but at least it happened. F4 introduced Black Panther and that's about it for long-term additions
    Well, Spider-Man added Miles and "that's about it" too, F4 not only created BP much earlier, but he's also more than copy and pasting the main character's power set in another, if BP can be so easily dismissed as an addition, so can Miles.

    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Also aside from Panther-they really didn't do solo for others aside from Ben (sort of).
    Early on, Johnny had Strange Tales as basically his solo comic.

    Before Miles....

    Monica Rambeau
    Rocket Racer
    Robbie Robertson and his family
    Hobie Brown
    Nightwatch
    Puma
    Vermin
    Bloodshed
    Cardiac
    To name a few...

    Hobie Brown boasts a mini and ongoing.
    Nightwatch boasts an ongoing
    Rocket Racer had backups in books and Marvel paid Tony Isabella to do a set of them.
    Miles has the successful long run but he was not the first POC Spidey tried to toss out.
    Oh, wasn't saying he was, just pointing out that if Miles is gonna be used as an example of of POC characters introduced, then BP came around far, far earlier.

    Also I had forgotten Monica was introduced in Spidey's comic, I think it was setting her up as an Avenger?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    Honestly.... Yes for Sue, but not for Reed.

    The sad truth is that Sue's been at her best when Reed is not around. Back in Defalco's run when Reed was thought to be dead and Sue led the team, she flourished as a character and as a leader. More recently her solo has done more the character in 5 issues than the main has done in 20 years. Reeds character on the other hand would be a mopey mess, sad about Sue all the time.

    I don't want them to split and think the problems can easily be solved without separating them, but the truth is that Sue's been a better character when away from Reed and the FF.
    Is that the run from the 90's? Because if it is, I did check it out once, and Sue there was just saying "I know this sounds like a silver age comic book, but Reed isn't dead!", Ben and Johnny were really believing Reed was dead for some reason, and Malice returned and started to fuck with her mind I think (I know Malice did do that, but I'm not sure if it was during the "Reed's dead" mini arc), don't think she did much as a character besides that.

    If Sue's somehow even worse than that, then oh boy lol.

    I guess that goes back to the toxic nostalgia thing, if it's as extreme as it's sounding like, then Sue was a nobody in Kirby era, and now she's just a stronger nobody.

    Quote Originally Posted by ARkadelphia View Post
    He’s no Charles Xavier, that’s for sure
    What do you mean? That Reed isn't as bad as Xavier?

  2. #137
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    Future Foundation was cancelled, though. If it stuck around, you'd have a point. Idk if any of the diverse characters it introduced lasted as long as Miles, Kamala or Riri Williams.

    And there's nothing wrong with copying someone's powers. It's not like Black Panther or even F4 have the most unique powers anyway

  3. #138
    Extraordinary Member John Venus's Avatar
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    If the FF had a rotating group membership then they would be the same as every other superhero team. Most superhero teams are either found families or it's a 'job' to them, the FF are a family, they were a family before they went on that rocket and stayed as one even after they got irradiated and got superpowers. That's what makes them unique. I wager the only reason why Reed and Sue stayed married is because Lee/Kirby married them and is thus 'more canon' than what anyone else has done.

    While the core roster of FF most probably shouldn't change, they've had periods where She Hulk replaced the thing and that time Storm and Black Panther filled in for Reed and Sue:




    The only way for non white characters to flourish through FF is either through spin offs (Black Panther, Future Foundation) or supporting characters (Alicia, Wyat Wingfoot) or when their members are temporarily replaced (She Hulk, Black Panther, Storm).

    This does not preclude adaptations from casting non white actors in those roles. In fact I would be disappointed if they don't go this route in the movies.

    And speaking as a non-white reader, I found that while X-Men and Avengers boast about diversity, their poc members often get sidelined (Monica), killed off (Thunderbird) or villainized and chucked in limbo for long periods (Wanda, Jean Grey). The worst part is the problematic 'being a mutant is worse than being black' or 'the mutie word is as bad as the N-word' bs that the X-Men comics often trot out. FF meanwhile has felt more welcoming and technically they got the ball rolling on diversity way before the Avengers and X-Men did.

  4. #139
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    The X-Men and Avengers no doubt have considerable problems with it comes to non-White and female heroes, and other minority heroes, the least of which you've pointed out. But they still actually introduce and develop these characters. F4 doesn't nearly as much, so I can't say it's really better. Doesn't excuse how X-Men, Avengers or any other team treat their minority heroes, but at least we get characters like Monica or James Proudstar. Not so much with the F4. And the F4 treatment of female heroes isn't great IMO.

  5. #140
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    The X-Men and Avengers no doubt have considerable problems with it comes to non-White and female heroes, and other minority heroes, the least of which you've pointed out. But they still actually introduce and develop these characters. F4 doesn't nearly as much, so I can't say it's really better. Doesn't excuse how X-Men, Avengers or any other team treat their minority heroes, but at least we get characters like Monica or James Proudstar. Not so much with the F4. And the F4 treatment of female heroes isn't great IMO.
    I think it really just depends on what eras and writers you look at.

  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by CSTowle View Post
    There were a few factors. One, the Avengers relied upon the popularity of solo title heroes like Captain America and Iron Man to draw people in. The problem being, you couldn't really do anything hard-hitting or important in the team book because it would take away from their solo titles, and they weren't really given a lot of room to do anything but sling a shield/blast a repulsor ray and shout a catchphrase. That was reserved for the Avengers-only characters like your Hawkeyes/Visions/Doctor Druids.
    This^
    The most interesting characters in the Avengers were also the characters writers weren't allowed to do things with. Which meant it became the story of boring B-listers doing soap-opera stuff, while the most interesting characters mostly just kind of stood around as glorified cameos.

  7. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think it really just depends on what eras and writers you look at.
    Um, probably the majority of eras of the Avengers and X-Men are more diverse than those of the F4.

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelC View Post
    This^
    The most interesting characters in the Avengers were also the characters writers weren't allowed to do things with. Which meant it became the story of boring B-listers doing soap-opera stuff, while the most interesting characters mostly just kind of stood around as glorified cameos.
    What's uninteresting about the B-listers? I thought the complaint was the solo heroes take up too much attention now.

  8. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    What's uninteresting about the B-listers? I thought the complaint was the solo heroes take up too much attention now.

    Now as for B listers being uninteresting... It depends on WHO you are talking about.

    See McDuffie's JLA. A book that was HELD hostage by solo books. Some just took issue with WHO made up the B listers.

    A behavior we saw with 2015 Avengers, Mighty Avengers, the last Outsiders series and even the current X-Men book.

    It becomes a battle of B lister fans versus B lister fans-who fear development will be far and few due to who is on the roster.

    In some cases the development is more or less tossed on the guy-who doesn't sniff a solo or mini. Like Synch. Or Sue Storm until recently.

    Monica Spectrum-all she got was 2 one shots. She LED the Avengers. Even with the folks who did not care for her GONE-she still can't sniff a mini.

  9. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Now as for B listers being uninteresting... It depends on WHO you are talking about.

    See McDuffie's JLA. A book that was HELD hostage by solo books. Some just took issue with WHO made up the B listers.

    A behavior we saw with 2015 Avengers, Mighty Avengers, the last Outsiders series and even the current X-Men book.

    It becomes a battle of B lister fans versus B lister fans-who fear development will be far and few due to who is on the roster.

    In some cases the development is more or less tossed on the guy-who doesn't sniff a solo or mini. Like Synch. Or Sue Storm until recently.

    Monica Spectrum-all she got was 2 one shots. She LED the Avengers. Even with the folks who did not care for her GONE-she still can't sniff a mini.
    Well, there are B and C listers I don't care about, but there are also A listers I don't care about as well. Plus, a lot of minority and/or newer heroes are B-list and lower, so not giving them a chance doesn't really help diversity or progress

    And if it's a battle between different B-listers, maybe A-listers should take a back seat

  10. #145
    Astonishing Member From The Shadows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LAWtoyoto 432 View Post
    Yeah, some writers who felt forced to shove diversity will only make thing worse than that. Especially he or she will make some stupid pollitcal correctness which will make the minority look bad to the audiences. Take an example of most of the redhead representation have been butchered by hollywood.
    I don't see it as forced if there is a history of diversity already, however small, like Wyatt Wingfoot and Luke Cage. I am not even against creating new characters in comics. Thats beside the fact that there are many legacy characters too. its race/gender swapping that I don't like. Thats the true "diversity" that chases me away. And its unneeded. Thats why Jen could take things place and not Thing to feel replaced. Or when Rodey replaced Tony but he was not forgotten either. Or Bill , though an alien and not a woman or POC, replaced Thor. But no one erased them and they could still come back and did. And if people need that, then that says something about them - needing to erase anyone. And I don't think most people need it.
    Last edited by From The Shadows; 09-26-2021 at 08:36 PM.
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  11. #146
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    There is no forced diversity. Conformity is forced. Always has been

  12. #147
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Um, probably the majority of eras of the Avengers and X-Men are more diverse than those of the F4.
    I was talking character development/characterization.

  13. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I was talking character development/characterization.
    I'd still rank F4 below the other 2 and Spider-Man

  14. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I'd still rank F4 below the other 2 and Spider-Man
    I think with all of them it's the same thing, more or less .

  15. #150
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    The F4 in terms of powers and how they flow together as a team are more fun to watch than The Avengers where generally speaking it's a garish ugly stew.

    The F4 because of their matching suits and complementary powers look good as a team and team fights with them are interesting on that sense. Not the same with The Avengers.
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