Page 7 of 17 FirstFirst ... 34567891011 ... LastLast
Results 91 to 105 of 245
  1. #91
    Spectacular Member cam18's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2021
    Posts
    159

    Default

    I was never the biggest Avengers fan to be honest from Marvel I preferred the X-Teams and the FF4 and even DC who imo has weaker teams overall I preferred JL and The New Teen Titans(which kind of used the xmen forumla of the time to become a bigtime book)....LOSH was cool to depending on the roster. That said I did respect the Avengers before they became anything goes anyone can be avenger basically the JL upping of the Avengers....What I really grew to dislike about the avengers was a weaker franchise taking characters from stronger franchises especially X-Men to boost there popularity with no concern to how it might affect the home franchise or that particular character not all characters are avengers material or would want to be avengers and that seemed to be disregarded just to create this big, bloated team with no real sense of itself narratively. I think its one reason the Avengers while they certainly have there fans never had those true ride or die diehards fans that X-Men had....Avengers imo at its best was a place for of the more significant heroes of marvel like cap and ironman to really mix and mingle with some of the lesser known characters of marvel that weren't associated with another franchise like black knight, monica rochambeau etc.....not taking popular x characters to get the x fans or even members of the ff4 the later a true jump the shark moments when sue and reed joined that team however brief.

  2. #92
    Astonishing Member From The Shadows's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    4,670

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    So? Some couples are snores. It's fine. Not everyone can be hip and charismatic as Peter/MJ.
    Wha? Sorry....?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    They don't need to be, but they should be interesting to read at the very least. This is entertainment at the end of the day and honestly, the relationship needs to be improved.

    No one said that they need to be the coolest, but Sue in particular needs better characterization and development.
    Yes.
    Dear snobs, don't try to figure out my avatar.

    Sorry, I am agnostic. And your presumptions makes you something.

    The(old) Hank McCoy thread. https://community.cbr.com/showthread...on-Thread-2020

    Interested in knowing more about Balder? https://community.cbr.com/showthread...on-Thread-2020

  3. #93
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    72,943

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    IMO the only cool thing about her is her power. What else does she have? What does she do or like besides her family? Because to me, she comes off like a 60s housewife.
    I'd check out her solo book by Mark Waid.
    Maybe I'd like the concept if I thought the characters were interesting. But the 50s style Americana throwback family doesn't really appeal to me. Groups like the X-Men and Avengers have their own unique and diverse dynamics not just typified by being related.
    Well, it's not a matter of just being related because Ben isn't related to them at all, and I don't think there's anything particularly dated about their core character traits and dynamics, in so far as I feel like you see those dynamics in other teams too to some extent.

  4. #94
    Ultimate Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2021
    Posts
    10,542

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I'd check out her solo book by Mark Waid.
    Ok. Maybe that'll help. But that's fairly recent

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Well, it's not a matter of just being related because Ben isn't related to them at all, and I don't think there's anything particularly dated about their core character traits and dynamics, in so far as I feel like you see those dynamics in other teams too to some extent.
    Idk. I like space travel and Star Trek and all that, but they just seem so hokey. The dynamics on other teams seem more interesting to me. I guess they seem too one-dimensional as individuals.

    And in terms of diversity, they're fairly behind the times.

  5. #95
    Original CBR member Jabare's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    7,664

    Default

    Spider-Man is still Marvel's most popular character. Now the company doesn't lean on him to the degree DC does with Batman, but he's still the companies #1

    Avengers was not really Marvel's flagship book until Bendis took over. And he added Spider-Man and Wolverine to the team.


    Justice League didn't use to be DC's top-selling team. It was the Titans. Just like how the X-men were far more popular then the Avengers.

    Fantastic Four hasn't been a top seller in decades, but it's still an iconic team and very influential to mainstream comics.

    But things change.
    The J-man

  6. #96
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    9,075

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by From The Shadows View Post
    Wha? Sorry....?
    Some romantic couples in fiction tend to have this innate chemistry and charisma that makes anything with just the two of them interesting, that's true in fiction but also in real life where two incredibly charismatic people with incredible chemistry who make each other more interesting and are fascinating just watching the two interact. But in real-life and also in some fiction, not all romances and relationships are like that, that includes happy marriages and so on, where you simply have two compatible people who find each other and make it work with little drama where the couple are more like a single compound, than two fascinating chemicals interacting with one another.

    I think Reed/Sue are the latter category. They're basically Jimmy Stewart/Donna Reed in It's A Wonderful Life as opposed to Bogart/Bacall in To Have and Have Not or Dark Passage. Or alternatively, Reed/Sue is like Rocky/Adrian from Rocky rather than Han/Leia from Star Wars. The best recent example I would say is that Reed and Sue are like Homer and Marge from The Simpsons, not in terms of characterization but in terms of their dynamic as a couple, where despite all their difficulties, the two are genuinely compatible and loving to one another and the show as a whole is about them as a family and not so much about their relationship.

    Whereas Peter/Mary Jane, and Clark/Lois, Bruce/Selina or Mr. Miracle/Big Barda to name a few are all deeply charismatic couples where you can do just simple panels showing the two of them interact and it's still interesting. They have that chemistry which you see in stuff like Spencer Tracy/Katharine Hepburn movies, or Bogart/Bacall movies, or Han/Leia, or Tom Hanks/Meg Ryan movies, or DiCaprio/Winslet, or Brendan Fraser/Rachel Weisz in The Mummy movies.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Follow me at:
    https://elvingsmusings.wordpress.com/

  7. #97
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    72,943

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Idk. I like space travel and Star Trek and all that, but they just seem so hokey. The dynamics on other teams seem more interesting to me. I guess they seem too one-dimensional as individuals.

    And in terms of diversity, they're fairly behind the times.
    I guess they kind of have that explorer vibe from Star Trek, but I'm not sure if it's that comparable. I don't see what's hokier to them than any other comic group or characters, but that's just me. I feel like a more thorough reading of the group provides a glimpse at how they're not one-dimensional.

    I'm not going to deny they're not as diverse as other teams but I think the characters can still be appreciated in-spite of that. Just my POV.

  8. #98
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Posts
    2,902

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    No, Lee-Kirby Reed was definitely a piece of work or a work of piece. But it probably wasn't intended that he be unsympathetic.
    Intentions and what comes on the paper can be two different things, after all, the love interests Slott wrote for Spidey weren't intended to look so abusive, or that we should find it cool that Jean read Bobby's mind to say he's gay.

    I would need to check out silver age stuff to see if Reed is consistently an ass though, if it's like, 1 moment he's an ass out of 50 he's nice, then it's not much of an issue.

    I mean if you read classic comics a lot of characters come off as unintentionally jerkish, like '50s Superman is basically a sexist a--hole next to whom even Reed is a feminist.
    Silver age supes stuff just looks insane, Lois for example is constantly "proven" wrong that Clark and Supes are the same person, and she keeps believing they are the same person regardless lol.

    Supes at times was really too much of an ass, even without excuses that he was being mind controlled (Which happened with astonishing frequency), he came across as petty with the way he treated people around him.

    The way Superman treated female characters in his comics in that time was far worse and the reason was it was written for kids and the "Girls=Cooties" crowd. Some part of that is also there in Fantastic Four (though it's surprisingly absent in Amazing Spider-Man, not that it didn't have other issues).
    Maybe Ditko was just better at handling women than Kirby? Even if there were questionable moments anyways lol.

    It is worth pointing out that Stan Lee and Kirby being so old would influence how they treat characters, which can explain the way Reed is more like a 50's husband, or how the women they wrote were so, consistently helpless, and keep in mind before F4 was a thing we had Supergirl, who's older than all of Marvel's modern characters and was just as competent as Supes on her comic (Despite Supes saying that she needed training, she used her powers as creatively as he did), so the excuse "that's how women were written at the time" doesn't really work, at least when it comes to competency as a hero.

    To get back to the Fantastic Four, for me they are still pretty charming creations and done right (like with Hickman) they can still be a fount of ideas and inspiration.
    Sure they can, their potential is huge, problem is toxic nostalgia holding them back, so we have Johnny deciding to stop being a dickhead, only to continue being one, and for Ben to whine about being a rock, over and over again.

    I don't know how well Hickman's run on Fantastic Four sold but it was certainly the only FF run after Lee-Kirby and Byrne I felt I had to track. And Hickman made the kids - Franklin and Valeria - into essential parts of the Family.
    Did Hickman do anything essential with her? 'Cause I'm pretty sure it was another writer who defined Valeria's personality and role on the family, or at least just the personality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Well, there's a difference between being influential, and being relevant or still workable.
    We have a character who's has the ridiculous story of being bitten by a radioactive spider to get super powers, and he's one of the most popular super-heroes on the planet, and he's still workable, how's F4 any less workable than that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I just think the nuclear family-esque concept is dated in the way it's often done. Batman and Spider-Man are singular characters who join big groups. Whereas F4 is a static team that lacks diversity and has problematic depictions of relationships at times. And tbh, even Batman and Spider-Man have outdated and cliche concepts in their lore, too.
    If "problematic depictions of relationships" were to be a reason for F4 to be gone, then Batman should stop existing, 'cause the issues that F4 show in relationships are basically nothing compared to all the abusive crap Batman pulls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    So? Some couples are snores. It's fine. Not everyone can be hip and charismatic as Peter/MJ.
    Sure, but they're fictional characters, while there's nothing wrong with someone being boring in real life, fictional characters do have to be "cool" in some way, and having a boring relationship doesn't help.

    The Fantastic Four is about a team and not everyone can be the coolest person on the team. And besides, Reed/Sue have pretty charismatic kids in Franklin and especially Valeria.
    Maybe it's the random stories I've read that had Franklin that did him no favors, but I never really thought he was that interesting, 'cause the roles he usually had were basically "a kid" or "MacGuffin" lol.

    Not that being either of those things is bad, but he didn't seem to do much beyond those, maybe me reading issues at random does him no favors lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I'd check out her solo book by Mark Waid.
    I really don't think that comic is a representation of what Sue is usually like.

    Hell she even uses her powers in more creative ways there, like changing the color of her skin for a disguise, or still managing to "see" despite being temporarily blinded, and the whole "super spy" shit lol.

    If the character isn't like that with consistency, then that's just one story where the character looks the best, which, hey, it's good to have a story like that, but not the usual representation, kinda like if someone reads Kraven's Last Hunt and expects Kraven to be that interesting consistently, and then they go back and find more than one story where Kraven's hunting Spidey because he wants to impress his girlfriend (Which I think were his last stories right before Last Hunt), yeah lol.

  9. #99
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    72,943

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    I really don't think that comic is a representation of what Sue is usually like.

    Hell she even uses her powers in more creative ways there, like changing the color of her skin for a disguise, or still managing to "see" despite being temporarily blinded, and the whole "super spy" shit lol.

    If the character isn't like that with consistency, then that's just one story where the character looks the best, which, hey, it's good to have a story like that, but not the usual representation, kinda like if someone reads Kraven's Last Hunt and expects Kraven to be that interesting consistently, and then they go back and find more than one story where Kraven's hunting Spidey because he wants to impress his girlfriend (Which I think were his last stories right before Last Hunt), yeah lol.
    She's always had a really creative powerset, it's just usually a matter of whether a specific run/writer can expand on it, and sometimes a solo book is a good opportunity for that. I was thinking more from a personality aspect.

  10. #100
    All-New Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2021
    Posts
    21

    Default

    For me the Avengers was just the X-Men FF and Spidey reunited the only Avenger i cared about was Cap

  11. #101
    Fantastic Member Doom'nGloom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2020
    Posts
    295

    Default

    People may think F4 is not that interesting yet I can't think of many stories as poignant as This Man This Monster or as dramatic as Johnny's sacrifice during Hickman's run or as satisfactory as Reed and Doom's fight at the end of Secret Wars. And why is nostalgia only held against F4. Last I checked Spidey is still single, X-men is still fighting for mutants' survival and many other examples all boiling down to 'nostalgia'.

  12. #102
    Ultimate Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2021
    Posts
    10,542

    Default

    I'm not saying the other heroes aren't trapped by nostalgia too. I've complained about that, too (especially the X-Men thing). I'm just saying that the White American nuclear family aspect doesn't really represent modern world. At least characters like Spider Man or Wolverine or Iron Man can introduce other new diverse heroes, but F4 doesn't really aside from Black Panther in the 60s

    And I don't really see how Reed and Sue are a good couple. What do they have in common? They come off as a bad stereotype of nagging wife and inattentive husband. And Idk what they have without that
    Last edited by CosmiComic; 09-23-2021 at 07:50 PM.

  13. #103
    Astonishing Member John Venus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    4,964

    Default

    I recommend reading more FF comics instead of passing judgment based on a long distant surface level interpretation of the team.

    And it's not like men and women have stopped marrying each other. We just accept that marriage that can be more than just between man and woman. A nuclear family is still relevant. Plus, claiming that the FF can't introduce new and diverse heroes is just flat out wrong since there is Future Foundation and even She Hulk was a longstanding member of the team.

  14. #104
    Ultimate Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2021
    Posts
    10,542

    Default

    I've read some, but this relationship has never made sense to me. What exactly do they see in each other?

    I was more commenting on the Whiteness of the stereotypical nuclear family. Yes, Future Foundation can possibly introduce new diverse heroes, but did it? Spider-Man introduced Miles, and Iron Man introduced War Machine and Ironheart. How much did F4 add?

  15. #105
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    72,943

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I'm not saying the other heroes aren't trapped by nostalgia too. I've complained about that, too (especially the X-Men thing). I'm just saying that the White American nuclear family aspect doesn't really represent modern world. At least characters like Spider Man or Wolverine or Iron Man can introduce other new diverse heroes, but F4 doesn't really aside from Black Panther in the 60s
    I don't think it's so much the White American nuclear family that's relevant but just the family dynamic in general. Which to me is quintessential.
    And I don't really see how Reed and Sue are a good couple. What do they have in common? They come off as a bad stereotype of nagging wife and inattentive husband. And Idk what they have without that
    They're both caring in their own way, Reed albeit more awkwardly, Sue is impressed by Reed's drive and genius, Reed by Sue's compassion and caring, and they can both be very driven and determined in-spite of their circumstances.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I've read some, but this relationship has never made sense to me. What exactly do they see in each other?

    I was more commenting on the Whiteness of the stereotypical nuclear family. Yes, Future Foundation can possibly introduce new diverse heroes, but did it? Spider-Man introduced Miles, and Iron Man introduced War Machine and Ironheart. How much did F4 add?
    How much do those characters associate with the base franchises though? They're more spinoffs.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •