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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The F4 in terms of powers and how they flow together as a team are more fun to watch than The Avengers where generally speaking it's a garish ugly stew.

    The F4 because of their matching suits and complementary powers look good as a team and team fights with them are interesting on that sense. Not the same with The Avengers.
    Some of the F4 have interesting powers, I agree on that. But I don't see how they're more fun to watch. The matching suits lack any individuality.

  2. #152
    Mighty Member ARkadelphia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I'd still rank F4 below the other 2 and Spider-Man
    I welcome more diversity in the Marvel Universe but I don’t think that every team title has to have any main characters that are racially, orientation, or gendered diverse. And with Fantastic Four in particular, I’m just fine with the lead characters staying who they’ve been as those 4 have been the focus of the vast majority of their 60 years in existence.
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  3. #153
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Some of the F4 have interesting powers, I agree on that. But I don't see how they're more fun to watch. The matching suits lack any individuality.
    Well...Ben, obviously, but I think they make the uniforms look good.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by ARkadelphia View Post
    I welcome more diversity in the Marvel Universe but I don’t think that every team title has to have any main characters that are racially, orientation, or gendered diverse. And with Fantastic Four in particular, I’m just fine with the lead characters staying who they’ve been as those 4 have been the focus of the vast majority of their 60 years in existence.
    I mean, theoretically you're right but when comics don't make much effort to diversify, it's hard for me to justify a continuously all-White, mostly male team. And tbh, I think comics in general are too stagnant, so keeping the same 4 forever isn't a plus for me, especially if I think they dynamic isn't that interesting

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Well...Ben, obviously, but I think they make the uniforms look good.
    I don't like or dislike the uniform, but I prefer the individuality of Avengers' costumes

  5. #155
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ARkadelphia View Post
    I welcome more diversity in the Marvel Universe but I don’t think that every team title has to have any main characters that are racially, orientation, or gendered diverse. And with Fantastic Four in particular, I’m just fine with the lead characters staying who they’ve been as those 4 have been the focus of the vast majority of their 60 years in existence.
    I mostly agree but on the other hand, 2 of the four are severely undeveloped which is inexcusable for such a small team that's been around for 60 years. If they're not diversifying the team then I expect all members to complex characters. Not just Reed.
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  6. #156
    Extraordinary Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    The X-Men and Avengers no doubt have considerable problems with it comes to non-White and female heroes, and other minority heroes, the least of which you've pointed out. But they still actually introduce and develop these characters. F4 doesn't nearly as much, so I can't say it's really better. Doesn't excuse how X-Men, Avengers or any other team treat their minority heroes, but at least we get characters like Monica or James Proudstar. Not so much with the F4. And the F4 treatment of female heroes isn't great IMO.
    Once again you're not understanding the nature of F4 franchise compared to the Avengers/X-Men franchises and you're cherry picking only from eras which support your arguments and ignoring the ones which don't. This is like fixating on the Lee/Kirby's original characterization of OG5 X-Men over anything that came afterward. Ask Wanda, Jean, Storm, Carol, Monica and Janet about how much better the Avengers/X-Men franchises are for women, oh that's right, they've had it terribly too and in many cases, it's worse than anything Sue has ever been put through. And not every team has to grow from a 5 member team to a Legion of hundreds of characters, some are more tight-night and serve more like jumping off points or they create spin offs for other characters (which the FF has done as previously mentioned in this thread). Either you need to read more FF in order to understand why so many are disagreeing with you on here or maybe this franchise is just not to your taste (which is totally fine aswell).

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    Once again you're not understanding the nature of F4 franchise compared to the Avengers/X-Men franchises and you're cherry picking only from eras which support your arguments and ignoring the ones which don't. This is like fixating on the Lee/Kirby's original characterization of OG5 X-Men over anything that came afterward. Ask Wanda, Jean, Storm, Carol, Monica and Janet about how much better the Avengers/X-Men franchises are for women, oh that's right, they've had it terribly too and in many cases, it's worse than anything Sue has ever been put through. And not every team has to grow from a 5 member team to a Legion of hundreds of characters, some are more tight-night and serve more like jumping off points or they create spin offs for other characters (which the FF has done as previously mentioned in this thread). Either you need to read more FF in order to understand why so many are disagreeing with you on here or maybe this franchise is just not to your taste (which is totally fine aswell).
    I'm aware of the nature of the F4. But I don't quite her what you're saying. Yes, the F4 introduced a few major diverse characters but it's not close to what Avengers or X-Men did. So I'm not cherry picking anything. I'm just not overly defensive about a very non-diverse old team of superheroes. I'm not sure how you can argue the F4 are better for diversity. Because Johnny has a Native American friend? Because that might've been progressive in 1971 but not now. At least X-Men has Storm as a main superhero, not an infrequently occurring civilian. Again, I'm not defending anything bad the Avengers or X-Men did to minority characters. I've criticized that myself. But they still have diverse recurring characters, albeit underutilized. F4 isn't at all better. So no, I'm not hugely interested in a homogeneous, old-fashioned and frequently unchanging superhero team.

    And you mention female characters not being treated well yet you're defending the major female character with the blandest portrayal in Marvel Comics, who's also part of a questionable relationship. I'm honestly not sure what your point it. At least Ororo, Janet and Monica became leaders. What did Sue do?

  8. #158
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I'm aware of the nature of the F4. But I don't quite her what you're saying. Yes, the F4 introduced a few major diverse characters but it's not close to what Avengers or X-Men did. So I'm not cherry picking anything. I'm just not overly defensive about a very non-diverse old team of superheroes. I'm not sure how you can argue the F4 are better for diversity. Because Johnny has a Native American friend? Because that might've been progressive in 1971 but not now. At least X-Men has Storm as a main superhero, not an infrequently occurring civilian. Again, I'm not defending anything bad the Avengers or X-Men did to minority characters. I've criticized that myself. But they still have diverse recurring characters, albeit underutilized. F4 isn't at all better. So no, I'm not hugely interested in a homogeneous, old-fashioned and frequently unchanging superhero team.

    And you mention female characters not being treated well yet you're defending the major female character with the blandest portrayal in Marvel Comics, who's also part of a questionable relationship. I'm honestly not sure what your point it. At least Ororo, Janet and Monica became leaders. What did Sue do?
    Sue has also led the Fantastic Four and has led a small nation of Atlanteans for a time.
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  9. #159
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    This make me wonder does Avengers run has ever outsell Spider-Man and X-Mens run before?

  10. #160
    Extraordinary Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I'm aware of the nature of the F4. But I don't quite her what you're saying. Yes, the F4 introduced a few major diverse characters but it's not close to what Avengers or X-Men did. So I'm not cherry picking anything. I'm just not overly defensive about a very non-diverse old team of superheroes. I'm not sure how you can argue the F4 are better for diversity. Because Johnny has a Native American friend? Because that might've been progressive in 1971 but not now. At least X-Men has Storm as a main superhero, not an infrequently occurring civilian. Again, I'm not defending anything bad the Avengers or X-Men did to minority characters. I've criticized that myself. But they still have diverse recurring characters, albeit underutilized. F4 isn't at all better. So no, I'm not hugely interested in a homogeneous, old-fashioned and frequently unchanging superhero team.

    And you mention female characters not being treated well yet you're defending the major female character with the blandest portrayal in Marvel Comics, who's also part of a questionable relationship. I'm honestly not sure what your point it. At least Ororo, Janet and Monica became leaders. What did Sue do?
    The point is:

    -the team's immutable roster is a feature, not a bug. Adaptations can cast non white actors in those roles and in fact that's where I hope they go. As for the comics, it is what it is. If they want to launch a team with a bigger roster and more diverse characters, the option is through spin off titles or through Future Foundation (which was dismantled under Slott but hopefully the next writer will revive it).

    -Again, we are not in the 60's any more. Have you read any of the retellings of early FF stories or anything published afterwards beyond contextless panels on the internet? Sue is the most powerful, versatile member of the team, has been team leader and once literally cracked open the shell of a Celestial. Her being bland or not is a matter of a subjective taste. Modern Sue would probably slap Reed out of the Baxter Building if he acted like 60's Reed, both characters have long since evolved past their initial characterization in the 60's, just like every other Marvel character has done. Focusing on one era and acting like it's problematic elements are still in vogue while excluding runs that had the characters evolving is exactly why I'm saying you're cherry picking to support your arguments.

    -I'm not saying the F4 is light years ahead of any of the franchises just that when they did feature non-white characters in their stories (in the runs that I've read), they were handled well. This is not to say their record is spot less *cough* Malice *cough*. But the Avengers and X-Men can be very suspect in their treatment of minority characters hence why I've never hailed either of those teams as beacons of diversity.

    Anyway, since we seem to going around in circles, I'll leave this conversation here. No point in continuing the conversation unless there is something new to add.

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    Sue has also led the Fantastic Four and has led a small nation of Atlanteans for a time.
    I remember her being married to Namor but I didn't know she was the leader of F4.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    The point is:

    -the team's immutable roster is a feature, not a bug. Adaptations can cast non white actors in those roles and in fact that's where I hope they go. As for the comics, it is what it is. If they want to launch a team with a bigger roster and more diverse characters, the option is through spin off titles or through Future Foundation (which was dismantled under Slott but hopefully the next writer will revive it).

    -Again, we are not in the 60's any more. Have you read any of the retellings of early FF stories or anything published afterwards beyond contextless panels on the internet? Sue is the most powerful, versatile member of the team, has been team leader and once literally cracked open the shell of a Celestial. Her being bland or not is a matter of a subjective taste. Modern Sue would probably slap Reed out of the Baxter Building if he acted like 60's Reed, both characters have long since evolved past their initial characterization in the 60's, just like every other Marvel character has done. Focusing on one era and acting like it's problematic elements are still in vogue while excluding runs that had the characters evolving is exactly why I'm saying you're cherry picking to support your arguments.

    -I'm not saying the F4 is light years ahead of any of the franchises just that when they did feature non-white characters in their stories (in the runs that I've read), they were handled well. This is not to say their record is spot less *cough* Malice *cough*. But the Avengers and X-Men can be very suspect in their treatment of minority characters hence why I've never hailed either of those teams as beacons of diversity.

    Anyway, since we seem to going around in circles, I'll leave this conversation here. No point in continuing the conversation unless there is something new to add.
    I've read parts of recent versions. Reed's improved, but I wouldn't hold him up a great barometer of a good husband. And I'm still not sure what Sue's personality is supposed to be. I'm not cherry picking because I'm going on what I know. I'll read more to see if that's true.

    And I'm quite aware of how F4 works. That doesn't somehow make it good for diversity. Yes, X-Men and Avengers have treated minorities poorly, and still do sometimes. But at least they have minority heroes. F4 doesn't as much. As you point out, Future Foundation was cancelled. Yes, that's the structure of the team, but comics are always excusing lack of minorities so this isn't a great excuse for me. That's my point. Handling minorities well in brief moments is good but it's the bare minimum and far from sufficient. So I can't just buy F4 somehow being great for minorities, because from what I've seen, it's not.

    I guess we'll agree to disagree here.

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by LAWtoyoto 432 View Post
    This make me wonder does Avengers run has ever outsell Spider-Man and X-Mens run before?
    Yes, it has. For a decade or more, Avengers outsold everything Marvel put out.

    For a chunk of the 2000s, Avengers (i.e New, Mighty and Dark) were Marvel's top selling titles.

    Avengers is still a top seller now but it doesn't outsell Spider-man anymore and is just around the top selling X-men titles now.
    Last edited by Username taken; 09-28-2021 at 06:05 AM.

  13. #163
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    "I can't read Fantastic Four because it's not diverse enough"

    Deadass?
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  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by LAWtoyoto 432 View Post
    This make me wonder does Avengers run has ever outsell Spider-Man and X-Mens run before?
    LOL. Unlikely not even at the highest prime push when marvel started using the ''trick'' lets promote only the IPs we can still make movies off.

    When it comes to comics sales , trust only IPs that never needed movies. It is not even about if any Avengers run can outsell, the issue is that many Avengers run tend to have little impact in marvel publishing. I always find it ironic that Joss Whedon X-MEN Run in the mid 2000s is still considered as one of and maybe objectively the best marvel run of the 21st century in marvel publishing and additionally I have heard more about the Krakoa noise of X-MEN and Spiderverse run than anything Avengers has put out in comics. I think the main issue of Avengers is, their comics run tend to struggle with been as influential as a Spiderman and X-MEN run in marvel publishing and that does affect sales in the later future. And I am saying this as a person that has been begging marvel to stop putting traces of the now almost 40 years Dark Phoenix Saga in every current xmen run

    I think Avengers works best in movies because some and audiences can be swept up by ties in and tie ends and crossovers, but this style has no to little business or impact in structuring comics to boast long lasting reliant sales.


    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    The point is:

    -the team's immutable roster is a feature, not a bug. Adaptations can cast non white actors in those roles and in fact that's where I hope they go. As for the comics, it is what it is. If they want to launch a team with a bigger roster and more diverse characters, the option is through spin off titles or through Future Foundation (which was dismantled under Slott but hopefully the next writer will revive it).


    -I'm not saying the F4 is light years ahead of any of the franchises just that when they did feature non-white characters in their stories (in the runs that I've read), they were handled well. This is not to say their record is spot less *cough* Malice *cough*. But the Avengers and X-Men can be very suspect in their treatment of minority characters hence why I've never hailed either of those teams as beacons of diversity.

    Anyway, since we seem to going around in circles, I'll leave this conversation here. No point in continuing the conversation unless there is something new to add.
    hmmm, so may be some want to try and see fire where there is no smoke, I cannot speak much for Avengers, but X-MEN had minorities characters in their lore when you look deeply but this to me only matters when I can tell the characters are still well written and even if you strip away their ethnic heritage, there is still substance to them. I am not a fan of token characters. this is where they went wrong with Kamela Khan, that character was a fail because it did everything wrong Jubilee or even Kitty Pryde did not fail to do.

    I have come to find diversity arguments in relations to marvel in todays term very shallow at best. Please take it from me , a person of color myself who was once was called racist and sexist because I pointed out many comic films like Shang Chi or black panther had some poor film making choices and I did not want the term the ''X-MEN'' to be changed because some may feel it is dated. Also I don't see the Screen Actors Guild (SAG), removing the ''actor'' part of that title, so why should X-MEN remove the men from its title. it is so ridiculous.

    If these are the same people trying to push for diversity in the comics. I will pass because I already see the writings on the wall. marvel will be heading where the star wars sequel Disney trilogy went. Again another franchise I would argue like marvel of the 70s to 90s had better diversity in the original and prequel trilogy than the newer disney star wars movies.
    Last edited by Castle; 09-28-2021 at 08:36 AM.

  15. #165
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I mean, theoretically you're right but when comics don't make much effort to diversify, it's hard for me to justify a continuously all-White, mostly male team. And tbh, I think comics in general are too stagnant, so keeping the same 4 forever isn't a plus for me, especially if I think they dynamic isn't that interesting



    I don't like or dislike the uniform, but I prefer the individuality of Avengers' costumes
    SLIGHTLY off-topic here, but I actually think Marvel/DC should try to incorporate superheroes with learning disabilities into their respective universes. I think kids who are "mentally disabled" should have heroes who can inspire them as well. That's a kind of representation that's been sorely neglected. I got this idea from Flowers for Algernon:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flowers_for_Algernon

    But I kinda think this won't happen. It's easier to write characters with PHYSICAL disabilities rather than those with MENTAL ones. I can't think of even ONE superhero who has cognitive disabilities. And yeah, I prefer the Avengers over the Fantastic Four and the X-Men (although I respect their respective fan bases as well).
    Last edited by Albert1981; 09-28-2021 at 08:23 AM.

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