Why "The Avengers" is not the same popular ties with FF, Spidey and X-Mens

[Lukmendes]

I recommend reading more FF comics instead of passing judgment based on a long distant surface level interpretation of the team.

And it's not like men and women have stopped marrying each other. We just accept that marriage that can be more than just between man and woman.

There's also the thing that marriage isn't really seen as "you have to do this" kind of deal, well, not as much at least.

I've read some, but this relationship has never made sense to me. What exactly do they see in each other?

I was more commenting on the Whiteness of the stereotypical nuclear family.

I'm honestly not sure what the problem is with them being white.

Yes, Future Foundation can possibly introduce new diverse heroes, but did it? Spider-Man introduced Miles, and Iron Man introduced War Machine and Ironheart. How much did F4 add?

Black Panther.

It also took Spider-Man a really, really long time to introduce Miles lol.

[Crimz]

I've read some, but this relationship has never made sense to me. What exactly do they see in each other?

I was more commenting on the Whiteness of the stereotypical nuclear family. Yes, Future Foundation can possibly introduce new diverse heroes, but did it? Spider-Man introduced Miles, and Iron Man introduced War Machine and Ironheart. How much did F4 add?

When written well, Sue grounds Reed and supports him so that he's able to do the incredible things he does. Reed shows Sue things she never could have imagined and pushes her to be her best. But that's when written well.

The Future Foundation had Onome from Wakanda, Moloids from subterra (one of them is trans), Atlanteans, Julie Power (she's bi), and it could add new members at any time. I'm livid that it's gone and I hope whoever takes over after Slott brings it back.

Also there's the classic character Wyatt Wingfoot, Johnny's best friend. Though he is so underused it's irritating because he's a great character.

[Alpha]

Basically, Sue Storm is Grimes and Reed Richards is Elon Musk.

[From The Shadows]

Some romantic couples in fiction tend to have this innate chemistry and charisma that makes anything with just the two of them interesting, that's true in fiction but also in real life where two incredibly charismatic people with incredible chemistry who make each other more interesting and are fascinating just watching the two interact. But in real-life and also in some fiction, not all romances and relationships are like that, that includes happy marriages and so on, where you simply have two compatible people who find each other and make it work with little drama where the couple are more like a single compound, than two fascinating chemicals interacting with one another.

I think Reed/Sue are the latter category. They're basically Jimmy Stewart/Donna Reed in It's A Wonderful Life as opposed to Bogart/Bacall in To Have and Have Not or Dark Passage. Or alternatively, Reed/Sue is like Rocky/Adrian from Rocky rather than Han/Leia from Star Wars. The best recent example I would say is that Reed and Sue are like Homer and Marge from The Simpsons, not in terms of characterization but in terms of their dynamic as a couple, where despite all their difficulties, the two are genuinely compatible and loving to one another and the show as a whole is about them as a family and not so much about their relationship.

Whereas Peter/Mary Jane, and Clark/Lois, Bruce/Selina or Mr. Miracle/Big Barda to name a few are all deeply charismatic couples where you can do just simple panels showing the two of them interact and it's still interesting. They have that chemistry which you see in stuff like Spencer Tracy/Katharine Hepburn movies, or Bogart/Bacall movies, or Han/Leia, or Tom Hanks/Meg Ryan movies, or DiCaprio/Winslet, or Brendan Fraser/Rachel Weisz in The Mummy movies.

It's funny you say this I love Its a Wonderful Life. Jimmy Stewart is one of my favorite golden age actors and I actually love that couple. Its perhaps one of my favorite old Hollywood films and definitely my favorite Christmas film. The Bogarts however bore me and I never did like Casablanca. But I understand many people love it.

A Philidelphia Story and Jimmy does not even get the girl. Cary does. So you connect Reed to Jimmy?



Also, I would put Lois and Clark up there with Reed and Sue. And I really don't get their appeal together and I only like Lois in the original Superman Films.

[Alpha]

Also, I would put Lois and Clark up there with Reed and Sue. And I really don't get their appeal together and I only like Lois in the original Superman Films.

Did you dislike them in Smallville? Because I personally think Smallville actually beats the Donner films in terms of Lois and Clark.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

So you connect Reed to Jimmy?

Huh...Reed Richards and Jimmy Stewart? Well I'd say that Reed doesn't have the charm of Stewart but yeah there are perhaps some Jimmy Stewart movies that might have inspired Reed Richards. Think of Rear Window where Stewart's character is dedicated to his serious work as a photographer and often neglects the gorgeous blonde Grace Kelly, and Stewart's character worries if she's tough enough to rough out and so on.

So maybe that was something that inspired Reed and Sue, but at the end of the day Jimmy Stewart and Grace Kelly are more charismatic and movie-star like than Stewart and Donna Reed. And Reed/Sue aren't as charismatic a couple as others are.

[CosmiComic]

I don't think it's so much the White American nuclear family that's relevant but just the family dynamic in general. Which to me is quintessential.

I don't find their family dynamic as interesting as the dynamics of Avengers or X-Men, though. Those teams don't necessarily need a hero to be a family member or close friend to join the team.

They're both caring in their own way, Reed albeit more awkwardly, Sue is impressed by Reed's drive and genius, Reed by Sue's compassion and caring, and they can both be very driven and determined in-spite of their circumstances.

I guess I've never seen that from what I've read of them.

How much do those characters associate with the base franchises though? They're more spinoffs.

They're somewhat connected, although some are more so than other.

There's also the thing that marriage isn't really seen as "you have to do this" kind of deal, well, not as much at least.



I'm honestly not sure what the problem is with them being white.

There's not an inherent problem but being an all-White, never changing team doesn't really help diversity that much, and comics could do more to be more diverse. And comics in general have a problem where only White heroes get families.

Black Panther.

It also took Spider-Man a really, really long time to introduce Miles lol.

IIRC I already pointed out BP. And yes, it took Spider-Man a long time, but at least it happened. F4 introduced Black Panther and that's about it for long-term additions

When written well, Sue grounds Reed and supports him so that he's able to do the incredible things he does. Reed shows Sue things she never could have imagined and pushes her to be her best. But that's when written well.

Maybe I've not read comics with that kind of portrayal yet. It's just everything I've read of them annoys me so it's hard to back and try it again.

The Future Foundation had Onome from Wakanda, Moloids from subterra (one of them is trans), Atlanteans, Julie Power (she's bi), and it could add new members at any time. I'm livid that it's gone and I hope whoever takes over after Slott brings it back.

Also there's the classic character Wyatt Wingfoot, Johnny's best friend. Though he is so underused it's irritating because he's a great character.

Interesting. I didn't know that about Future Foundation. Maybe someday it'll be brought back.

Wyatt Wingfoot does diversify the group, but he falls into the trap of 'non-White best friend.' I'd like to see more Native American superheroes (with actually interesting superpowers).

Also, I would put Lois and Clark up there with Reed and Sue. And I really don't get their appeal together and I only like Lois in the original Superman Films.

Lois and Clark doesn't always work for me, but sometimes it does, because she at least has a personality I can describe

[Frontier]

I don't find their family dynamic as interesting as the dynamics of Avengers or X-Men, though. Those teams don't necessarily need a hero to be a family member or close friend to join the team.

I guess I see the same kind of stuff in The Avengers and X-Men to some degree, but the FF are more of a family unit than The Avengers are.

I guess I've never seen that from what I've read of them.

I guess it depends what you read .

They're somewhat connected, although some are more so than other.

Well, Rhodey/War Machine was in Iron Man for a while.

There's not an inherent problem but being an all-White, never changing team doesn't really help diversity that much, and comics could do more to be more diverse. And comics in general have a problem where only White heroes get families.

They occasionally shake up the roster and expand the family (like with the kids).

I mean, I don't think it's true that that only white heroes get families now, but Reed and Sue were lucky enough that their marriage isn't seen as on the chopping block.

Maybe I've not read comics with that kind of portrayal yet. It's just everything I've read of them annoys me so it's hard to back and try it again.

Might want to check out what people recommend .

[CosmiComic]

I guess I see the same kind of stuff in The Avengers and X-Men to some degree, but the FF are more of a family unit than The Avengers are.

I guess that doesn't appeal to me. I like the fact characters don't need to be related to or friends with someone to join the Avengers or X-Men. But maybe I'd like the family aspect if I liked these characters

I guess it depends what you read .

I guess so. I've found this to be true across various iterations, except maybe the more recent ones. The most recent F4 I read was in Empyre.

Well, Rhodey/War Machine was in Iron Man for a while.

Correct

They occasionally shake up the roster and expand the family (like with the kids).

I mean, I don't think it's true that that only white heroes get families now, but Reed and Sue were lucky enough that their marriage isn't seen as on the chopping block.

The kids are cool. Idk how much they've aged up but they seemed older in Empyre.

But where do non-White heroes get family legacies, in terms of superheroes? Reed & Sue, Hank Pym, Jean & Scott, Scott Lang, Mar-Vell (portrayed as White despite being an alien), Bruce Banner, Jessica Drew, even Peter & MJ in MC2, all have legacy hero children. Do T'Challa, or Storm, or any of the other non-White heroes have that? As far as I know, maybe only Luke Cage.

And I'm not sure why Reed & Sue get to stay and others don't.

Might want to check out what people recommend .

Things are tight right now, but when I can, I will, just to see how things are now

[Frontier]

I guess that doesn't appeal to me. I like the fact characters don't need to be related to or friends with someone to join the Avengers or X-Men. But maybe I'd like the family aspect if I liked these characters

Could be. I can't really imagine FF without the family dynamic.

I guess so. I've found this to be true across various iterations, except maybe the more recent ones. The most recent F4 I read was in Empyre.

So Slott or the actual event book?

But where do non-White heroes get family legacies, in terms of superheroes? Reed & Sue, Hank Pym, Jean & Scott, Scott Lang, Mar-Vell (portrayed as White despite being an alien), Bruce Banner, Jessica Drew, even Peter & MJ in MC2, all have legacy hero children. Do T'Challa, or Storm, or any of the other non-White heroes have that? As far as I know, maybe only Luke Cage.

Black Lightning, too.

And I'm not sure why Reed & Sue get to stay and others don't.

I guess because their relationship is seen as too central to do away with.

Things are tight right now, but when I can, I will, just to see how things are now

Sounds reasonable .

[Panic]

But where do non-White heroes get family legacies, in terms of superheroes? Reed & Sue, Hank Pym, Jean & Scott, Scott Lang, Mar-Vell (portrayed as White despite being an alien), Bruce Banner, Jessica Drew, even Peter & MJ in MC2, all have legacy hero children. Do T'Challa, or Storm, or any of the other non-White heroes have that? As far as I know, maybe only Luke Cage.

I believe Patriot is Isiah Bradley's Grandson.

[Anthony W]

Ok. Maybe that'll help. But that's fairly recent



Idk. I like space travel and Star Trek and all that, but they just seem so hokey. The dynamics on other teams seem more interesting to me. I guess they seem too one-dimensional as individuals.

And in terms of diversity, they're fairly behind the times.

Star Trek Discovery and Picard is the most hokey Trek has been in decades. Spock had an adopted HUMAN sister he never told anyone about. The Discovery travels around using a magical mushroom drive. Picard died and was replaced by an android.

I think FF should fall within hokey tolerance levels.

[Agent Z]

Minority characters rarely have children or legacies because minority characters in general rarely used compared to their white counterparts. This will hopefully change in the future now that Marvel and DC are trying to be more diverse. However, this is not an issue exclusive to the FF and it is not one that originated with them.

It should be noted that the FF had a Native American supporting character (Wyatt Wingfoot) nine years before the X-Men's Thunderbird debuted. And while he wasn't a superhero, he was still handled much better than Thunderbird and the majority of minority characters the X-Men have ever had. In fact, looking at how the X-Men and the Avengers have treated their minority characters, I think Wingfoot has probably faired better than the lot of them.

[skyvolt2000]

I've read some, but this relationship has never made sense to me. What exactly do they see in each other?

I was more commenting on the Whiteness of the stereotypical nuclear family. Yes, Future Foundation can possibly introduce new diverse heroes, but did it? Spider-Man introduced Miles, and Iron Man introduced War Machine and Ironheart. How much did F4 add?

Fantastic Four

Black Panther, Wildstreak, the Wakandan kid in FF & Vibraxas.

For the most part FF was about a family-that really didn't warrant itself to expand beyond that.

Also aside from Panther-they really didn't do solo for others aside from Ben (sort of).

Wildstreak has been seen from time to time.

It also took Spider-Man a really, really long time to introduce Miles lol.

Before Miles....

Monica Rambeau
Rocket Racer
Robbie Robertson and his family
Hobie Brown
Nightwatch
Puma
Vermin
Bloodshed
Cardiac
To name a few...

Hobie Brown boasts a mini and ongoing.
Nightwatch boasts an ongoing
Rocket Racer had backups in books and Marvel paid Tony Isabella to do a set of them.
Miles has the successful long run but he was not the first POC Spidey tried to toss out.

[CosmiComic]

Could be. I can't really imagine FF without the family dynamic.

That's fine. I guess I don't really like them enough to like their family dynamic

So Slott or the actual event book?

The event

Black Lightning, too.

I meant Marvel, but that's a good example

I guess because their relationship is seen as too central to do away with.

I guess so but it would be nice if that could apply to other heroes. These 2 are ironically the couple I wouldn't be bothered if they broke up

Sounds reasonable .

I believe Patriot is Isiah Bradley's Grandson.

That's correct. I more meant legacies of major superheroes (I should've said that), but it's a good example. But it's far from enough

Star Trek Discovery and Picard is the most hokey Trek has been in decades. Spock had an adopted HUMAN sister he never told anyone about. The Discovery travels around using a magical mushroom drive. Picard died and was replaced by an android.

I think FF should fall within hokey tolerance levels.

Um, I wouldn't call that hokey. More like bad fanfiction.

Minority characters rarely have children or legacies because minority characters in general rarely used compared to their white counterparts. This will hopefully change in the future now that Marvel and DC are trying to be more diverse. However, this is not an issue exclusive to the FF and it is not one that originated with them.

Of course it's not original to them but it's not like they've had many permanent non-White members. And not using minority heroes isn't a great defense

It should be noted that the FF had a Native American supporting character (Wyatt Wingfoot) nine years before the X-Men's Thunderbird debuted. And while he wasn't a superhero, he was still handled much better than Thunderbird and the majority of minority characters the X-Men have ever had. In fact, looking at how the X-Men and the Avengers have treated their minority characters, I think Wingfoot has probably faired better than the lot of them.

Idk if I'd say he's treated better considering he's much more of a side character and not an actual superhero. Being the White hero's friend isn't great progress

Fantastic Four

Black Panther, Wildstreak, the Wakandan kid in FF & Vibraxas.

For the most part FF was about a family-that really didn't warrant itself to expand beyond that.

Also aside from Panther-they really didn't do solo for others aside from Ben (sort of).

Wildstreak has been seen from time to time.

That's part of why I don't really care for them. Their membership is closed off so it doesn't often allow diverse new characters like X-Men or Avengers do. As others pointed out, future Foundation could've fixed this but it was cancelled