Why "The Avengers" is not the same popular ties with FF, Spidey and X-Mens

[jwatson]

The ultimate lack of diversity in my opinion. I was looking at the list of avengers over the years and it's easier to get away with with FF that is a family or Spiderman that is one person, or X-men that has more diversity and more women on the team, though it's not great there either but there is no incentive for most to get avengers outside of white dudes in my opinion. I mean i googled avengers lineups and woo boy. So what is the real incentive for anyone other than the same people to buy it.

theavengers.jpg
That is just an example, see the latest avengers cover from solicits to. I mean i don't think it's that hard to understand. If you have a product and it only seems like it's for certain people, only certain people will buy it.

[Albert1981]

Deadpool joined during the third run of Uncanny Avengers

You don't say! Marvel loves its A-listers!

[jwatson]

If they are going to go by the moniker of earth's mightest heroes then they should reflect more of earth ie how united states of cap is doing a good job of representing America.

[CosmiComic]

Blade to me is an A-lister in live-action and animation. The Blade films were really popular in the day as I recall. He also had a pretty prominent role in the animated Spider-Man cartoon from the 90s. And there's a lot anticipation for that upcoming movie of his. So I'm talking about popular culture in general.

I guess in pop culture in but in comics, he's C-list at best IMO. Not a knock against him, but I don't think he's a very prominent character

The ultimate lack of diversity in my opinion. I was looking at the list of avengers over the years and it's easier to get away with with FF that is a family or Spiderman that is one person, or X-men that has more diversity and more women on the team, though it's not great there either but there is no incentive for most to get avengers outside of white dudes in my opinion. I mean i googled avengers lineups and woo boy. So what is the real incentive for anyone other than the same people to buy it.

theavengers.jpg
That is just an example, see the latest avengers cover from solicits to. I mean i don't think it's that hard to understand. If you have a product and it only seems like it's for certain people, only certain people will buy it.

Avengers does have a problem with diversity. The thing is, there are many female and minority heroes on the general roster, but they get shoved out. And some 'fans' complain about any attempt to fix that. Avengers-adjacent teams like Champions are more diverse

However, those other groups you mentioned all have their own problems with diversity. I wouldn't let them off the hook, either.

[Nomads1]

I don't understand this complain of the Avengers not being diverse. Over the years we've had Avengers from literally all walks of life in the MU, we've had Asian Avengers, Latin Avengers, African-American Avengers, Gay Avengers, etc...Proportianetly, were there more white dudes? Sure, but you have to take into account over 50 years of history in which tastes and society itself changed quite a lot. I always remember an Iron-Man quote during the Busiek-Perez era, stating that the units were too small to be representative. It was all about getting the job done. And I find it funny that people demand more diversity and yet want everybody in the same box. Each Marvel team has its own function, its identity, let's say. FF were the family, X-Men the community, and Avengers the actual team, the squad. As a (small) family, of course FF won't have much diversity. Reed and Sue tied the knot in the 60's. One of the few stable couples that lasted in Marvel. Despite various faints, they never had the courage to really split them, unlike other traditional ones, such as Hank and Jan, Scott and Jean, and even Pete and MJ. Considering that they are both caucasian, of course their children would be likewise. Ben tied the knot with longtime love Alicia (also white, but blind, which is an important check on the diversity box, IMHO. Ben "ugliness" has also served to represent people who don't fit in). They adopted (another important check) two kids from two distinctive alien races. If you're gonna want more typical representation, Johnny will have to marry an African-American, a Latin or an Asian woman, or a dude. Or he may continue to represent the single toxic male womanizer, or experiment a bit.
As a community, X-Men is the best place to find diversity and representation. It does also help that there are about half a dozen teams at any time to spread out those diverse characters.
Which brings us to the Avengers. A team, a small unique unit. Sometimes, if the story requires it, you can have a more diverse line-up, others, not so much, and I don't think there's any problem with that. Each book, and team, should offer us something different.

Peace

[marhawkman]

I don't understand this complain of the Avengers not being diverse. Over the years we've had Avengers from literally all walks of life in the MU, we've had Asian Avengers, Latin Avengers, African-American Avengers, Gay Avengers, etc...Proportianetly, were there more white dudes? Sure, but you have to take into account over 50 years of history in which tastes and society itself changed quite a lot. I always remember an Iron-Man quote during the Busiek-Perez era, stating that the units were too small to be representative. It was all about getting the job done. And I find it funny that people demand more diversity and yet want everybody in the same box. Each Marvel team has its own function, its identity, let's say. FF were the family, X-Men the community, and Avengers the actual team, the squad. As a (small) family, of course FF won't have much diversity. Reed and Sue tied the knot in the 60's. One of the few stable couples that lasted in Marvel. Despite various faints, they never had the courage to really split them, unlike other traditional ones, such as Hank and Jan, Scott and Jean, and even Pete and MJ. Considering that they are both caucasian, of course their children would be likewise. Ben tied the knot with longtime love Alicia (also white, but blind, which is an important check on the diversity box, IMHO. Ben "ugliness" has also served to represent people who don't fit in). They adopted (another important check) two kids from two distinctive alien races. If you're gonna want more typical representation, Johnny will have to marry an African-American, a Latin or an Asian woman, or a dude. Or he may continue to represent the single toxic male womanizer, or experiment a bit.
As a community, X-Men is the best place to find diversity and representation. It does also help that there are about half a dozen teams at any time to spread out those diverse characters.
Which brings us to the Avengers. A team, a small unique unit. Sometimes, if the story requires it, you can have a more diverse line-up, others, not so much, and I don't think there's any problem with that. Each book, and team, should offer us something different.

Peace

Yeah, they have quite an interesting variety. But the core team was always Iron Man, Captain America, Hulk, and Thor. Which makes sense for real-world reasons, and kinda fits in-universe as well.

The most interesting thing they did with Johnny was having him hook up with a Skrull(Lyja the Lazerfist). Yeah, that makes for "interesting" analogies in story telling.

[CosmiComic]

I don't understand this complain of the Avengers not being diverse. Over the years we've had Avengers from literally all walks of life in the MU, we've had Asian Avengers, Latin Avengers, African-American Avengers, Gay Avengers, etc...Proportianetly, were there more white dudes? Sure, but you have to take into account over 50 years of history in which tastes and society itself changed quite a lot. I always remember an Iron-Man quote during the Busiek-Perez era, stating that the units were too small to be representative. It was all about getting the job done. And I find it funny that people demand more diversity and yet want everybody in the same box. Each Marvel team has its own function, its identity, let's say. FF were the family, X-Men the community, and Avengers the actual team, the squad. As a (small) family, of course FF won't have much diversity. Reed and Sue tied the knot in the 60's. One of the few stable couples that lasted in Marvel. Despite various faints, they never had the courage to really split them, unlike other traditional ones, such as Hank and Jan, Scott and Jean, and even Pete and MJ. Considering that they are both caucasian, of course their children would be likewise. Ben tied the knot with longtime love Alicia (also white, but blind, which is an important check on the diversity box, IMHO. Ben "ugliness" has also served to represent people who don't fit in). They adopted (another important check) two kids from two distinctive alien races. If you're gonna want more typical representation, Johnny will have to marry an African-American, a Latin or an Asian woman, or a dude. Or he may continue to represent the single toxic male womanizer, or experiment a bit.
As a community, X-Men is the best place to find diversity and representation. It does also help that there are about half a dozen teams at any time to spread out those diverse characters.
Which brings us to the Avengers. A team, a small unique unit. Sometimes, if the story requires it, you can have a more diverse line-up, others, not so much, and I don't think there's any problem with that. Each book, and team, should offer us something different.

Peace

I don't excuse the F4 either. Them being a family is just another excuse to avoid being diverse. I don't get anyone being ok with them but complaining about the Avengers

[Zero Hunter]

The ultimate lack of diversity in my opinion. I was looking at the list of avengers over the years and it's easier to get away with with FF that is a family or Spiderman that is one person, or X-men that has more diversity and more women on the team, though it's not great there either but there is no incentive for most to get avengers outside of white dudes in my opinion. I mean i googled avengers lineups and woo boy. So what is the real incentive for anyone other than the same people to buy it.

theavengers.jpg
That is just an example, see the latest avengers cover from solicits to. I mean i don't think it's that hard to understand. If you have a product and it only seems like it's for certain people, only certain people will buy it.

So what your saying is only white people can enjoy this book? If that how you judge every book? In that case I better get rid of all those Black Panther and Powerman and Iron Fist books I have sitting around since I am not the "right" audience according to you. Do you hear how stupid that sounds?

[skyvolt2000]

So what your saying is only white people can enjoy this book? If that how you judge every book? In that case I better get rid of all those Black Panther and Powerman and Iron Fist books I have sitting around since I am not the "right" audience according to you. Do you hear how stupid that sounds?

Guess what that DOES happen.

Especially in the book and novels universe.

Where books that have POC as lead or supporting cast go out of their way to HIDE them on the cover.
See Rivers of London-a successful book series in the UK that is also a comic book from Titan Comics. When the novels came over here-the publisher HIDE the fact the lead guy was Black.
I have a book that has 4 different covers depending on where you live. Only one shows the black love interest/co-star.

So looking at that cover as someone who KNOWS the previous members. Here is the question that I would ask.
Where is the Black WOMAN known as Monica-who lead the Avengers as Cap Marvel? Rage? War Machine? Triad? Cage? Miles? Falcon?

Another thing we see is when POC are on these teams-SOMEONE has an issue with it. Especially if they get ANY development. See Synch in X-Men. See MCDuffie's JLA run. See McDuffie's Fantastic Four run. While that same SOMEONE has zero issue with the lack of development of POC in books where they do NOTHNG-see Cyborg in Justice League.

Yet there complaints vanish when POC are gone. The complaints only focus on the story.

So as POC if we keep seeing this-some of us are going to think that is pandering to one certain demographic. That would not stop a POC from reading the book.

It just gets annoying that the company says one thing but their actions still pander.

I don't understand this complain of the Avengers not being diverse.

The issue is can they do something other then the ABC racism issue that we see in books. Avengers is guilty of that with Rage and Falcon.
Also when you look at skills and powers-the POC is not being used. Because the fit throwers will take issue.

[ed2962]

The ultimate lack of diversity in my opinion. I was looking at the list of avengers over the years and it's easier to get away with with FF that is a family or Spiderman that is one person, or X-men that has more diversity and more women on the team, though it's not great there either but there is no incentive for most to get avengers outside of white dudes in my opinion. I mean i googled avengers lineups and woo boy. So what is the real incentive for anyone other than the same people to buy it.

theavengers.jpg
That is just an example, see the latest avengers cover from solicits to. I mean i don't think it's that hard to understand. If you have a product and it only seems like it's for certain people, only certain people will buy it.

This is not a good example. This drawing includes different version of the same character and a number of villains. There's a number of non-white Avengers who are not in this drawing.

Unless I missed it, I don't think I even see the Falcon who John Byrne himself drew when he was on the ongoing! Where's Mantis, Rage, Sliverclaw, Traithalon, etc?

[ed2962]

I don't excuse the F4 either. Them being a family is just another excuse to avoid being diverse. I don't get anyone being ok with them but complaining about the Avengers

Being a family is an excuse? The team was created during a time when in most states it was literally against the law to marry someone of a different race.

[CosmiComic]

Being a family is an excuse? The team was created during a time when in most states it was literally against the law to marry someone of a different race.

I get that you but comics will use whatever reason to not diversify. X-Men and Avengers at least give the option of introducing diverse heroes to the roster, which it has. F4 had Future Foundation but it was cancelled. So I'd rather read those other 2 comics than F4.

[jwatson]

So what your saying is only white people can enjoy this book? If that how you judge every book? In that case I better get rid of all those Black Panther and Powerman and Iron Fist books I have sitting around since I am not the "right" audience according to you. Do you hear how stupid that sounds?

If that's what you infer from my statement then be my guest. I don't have the energy to try to explain the business concept of ignoring an entire audience or supply and demand. *Shrugs*

[Tien Long]

In terms of issues of the Avengers' diversity, I think of Avengers Vol. 3, #27. This was a time when the line up was changing for a number of reasons. In previous issues, protestors were outside Avengers Mansion proclaiming that the team either didn't have enough minority members or too many mutant members. (Later issues would reveal that this was the Triune Understanding, the Avengers' enemy at the time who were inciting the protests). The Avengers acquiesced to such demands, but it definitely led to conflicts amongst the team and their government liasons. Here's what happened when such a liason, Duane Freeman, calculated the benefits and costs of letting go mutant members of the team:



Tony makes it very clear that Avengers membership is about getting the job done. It's open to anyone who can get that job done. As it always has been, whether that's been to Black, Hispanic, the gods, whomever. At the same time, Tony questions. Could the Avengers be unconsciously choosing white members? Tony hates to think he is, but maybe. I appreciate this scene. Good intentions are there, but maybe that's not enough. And members self-reflect, and ask themselves maybe they aren't doing the right thing. The whole issue in itself is a good read. Indeed, after reading it recently, I realized just how relevant it was to today's issues. Yes, people got angry over prejudices, inclusion, exclusion, all of that. But people questioned themselves. Maybe their beliefs weren't a hundred percent correct. Indeed, if those beliefs were true, then how come characters felt wrong afterwards?

Regarding the female characters, Peter Sanderson, Marvel Comic historian wrote how the Avengers' female characters just pointed and commented on things for many years (a la Scarlet Witch), which was in contrast to the X-Men's female characters. Reading more X-Men stories recently, I've noticed that. The X-Men's female characters really took center stage in a number of stories. Still, the Avengers have had women play prominent roles. Wasp, Black Widow, Scarlet Witch, Captain Marvel (both Carol and Monica), and many others, they have been in several high positions throughout their tenures as Avengers.

As an aside, I think that another reason why the Avengers were not as popular as the X-Men also came down to stakes. Reading X-Men stories, I'm noticing they're constantly attacked. They're under threat every, single time,. Like damn!

In short, the Avengers have done much in terms of diversity. However, there's still room for more to be done.

[Nomads1]

In terms of issues of the Avengers' diversity, I think of Avengers Vol. 3, #27. This was a time when the line up was changing for a number of reasons. In previous issues, protestors were outside Avengers Mansion proclaiming that the team either didn't have enough minority members or too many mutant members. (Later issues would reveal that this was the Triune Understanding, the Avengers' enemy at the time who were inciting the protests). The Avengers acquiesced to such demands, but it definitely led to conflicts amongst the team and their government liasons. Here's what happened when such a liason, Duane Freeman, calculated the benefits and costs of letting go mutant members of the team:



Tony makes it very clear that Avengers membership is about getting the job done. It's open to anyone who can get that job done. As it always has been, whether that's been to Black, Hispanic, the gods, whomever. At the same time, Tony questions. Could the Avengers be unconsciously choosing white members? Tony hates to think he is, but maybe. I appreciate this scene. Good intentions are there, but maybe that's not enough. And members self-reflect, and ask themselves maybe they aren't doing the right thing. The whole issue in itself is a good read. Indeed, after reading it recently, I realized just how relevant it was to today's issues. Yes, people got angry over prejudices, inclusion, exclusion, all of that. But people questioned themselves. Maybe their beliefs weren't a hundred percent correct. Indeed, if those beliefs were true, then how come characters felt wrong afterwards?


Regarding the female characters, Peter Sanderson, Marvel Comic historian wrote how the Avengers' female characters just pointed and commented on things for many years (a la Scarlet Witch), which was in contrast to the X-Men's female characters. Reading more X-Men stories recently, I've noticed that. The X-Men's female characters really took center stage in a number of stories. Still, the Avengers have had women play prominent roles. Wasp, Black Widow, Scarlet Witch, Captain Marvel (both Carol and Monica), and many others, they have been in several high positions throughout their tenures as Avengers.

As an aside, I think that another reason why the Avengers were not as popular as the X-Men also came down to stakes. Reading X-Men stories, I'm noticing they're constantly attacked. They're under threat every, single time,. Like damn!

In short, the Avengers have done much in terms of diversity. However, there's still room for more to be done.

That's the issue I mentioned in my last post, with Tony's statement. Such a fantastic read. IMHO, it tops anything currently being published, not only in terms of story quality, but also in relevance. Things were discussed with sutlety and with both sides of problems (racial issues, diversity, religious belifs and tolerance, for exemple) being presented and not force-fed or hitting you in the head with obvious points, as it seems to be nowadays. I think another great thing ab out it, that you left out in your comment (a great analysis, by the way), was that Tony then decided to step down as leader in favor of Jan as to not let his percieved bias in not wanting Triathlon to join tarnish the team's already troubled public image. I also found it great that, in the end, Tony was shown to be both, right and wrong (The Triune was up to no good, and Triathlon proved himself as a good and loyal Avenger). And, as a reader, I still think Tony was right. The roster is very maleable and small, it should feature whomever brings more to the story. The All-Star line-up is also boring.
As for the difference between the way Avengers show their female characters, I disagree. Both evolved with time. Jean and Polaris were basically as much wall-flowers in X-Men as as Jan and Wanda in Avengers. The powers of the fremale members were all juiced up with time. Storm was the only female X-Men for quite a while before Phoenix effectively joined (and I don't think she was ever featured in the corner box). Avenger made women as physically impressivbe as men before the X-Men gave us their god-like women. The Black Widow was always a good fighter, Mantis kicked Captain America and Thor's butts, and Ms Marvel was the empowered woman before that was a thing. As for women being the central foccus of stories, Claremont was both, a writer ahead of his time and a supporter of strong females, so of course, in 17 years, a lot of the stories he presented gained legendary status, and they had females in key positions, however, over the years, a lot of Avengers stories also featured women in key spots. Jan an Monica as leaders, The Celestial Madonna, Yesterday Quest, Darker than Scarlet, The Gatherers Saga, and many others were all centered around the female Avengers. As I said, I think both evolved well with time. The percieved difference is just because of the X-Men's greater popularity for some time.

Peace