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  1. #31
    Astonishing Member Castle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LAWtoyoto 432 View Post
    But now that Black Widow movie box office performance did not reach the full expectations and even Scarlett was sueing Disney for releasing the movie simultaneous release. Do you think Marvel will cancel her solo soon?


    It depends but most likely in the case of Scar Jo. Also you do see how much now Wanda and Captain Marvel are getting pushed in the comics it is no coincidence ? Why is Wanda still getting more stories with Magneto in 2021 when she is no longer his kid?

    If I do remember correctly also Feige even got a bigger promotion at marvel. he gets a say in how some comics and games are ran . this to me a not a good thing because it is not expanding the marvel universe but shrinking it. Do you need to enjoy a batman game to get into his comics? no.

    Sigh...the main goal now for marvel is that they are mostly done with avengers films and want to start making xmen movies, that is now their next gold mine perhaps the ip they can spin easily to billions again after star wars. so that means, in the comics, far less focus on avengers and other retired characters like iron man and black widow and the law suit will not help. Disney can be petty with this things, if they are feuding with you. they may not even give you a cake portion at a party., yeah crazy story but it did happen.

    the only difference is, X-MEN does not need MCU movies to maintain comic relevance. Also Unless MCU movies are going to take further steps in the genre than what a film like Logan or X-Men 1 did, I cannot see how MCU X-MEN films will not just get the same another MCU formula movie like Black Widow and even the recent Shang Chi and Last I checked the billions of dollars goes to Disney shareholders not us fans or pop culture gate keepers. lol.
    The whole sentence is right. Do you rather support different mutants spotlight issue or a bunch of endless Wolverine titles.

    I think avengers, ant man and gotg were good for the disney brand and their spotlight worked well with that factor. Spiderman, X-Men and F4? No so good for the Disney brand. the only reason why their comics fully escaped the disney branding is because by the 2010s their comics story and tone has become way too established to get the disney story telling treatment.
    Last edited by Castle; 09-18-2021 at 07:00 PM.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The Avengers always felt like the least Marvel of all titles.

    Marvel rightly or wrongly has this ethos of being edgy anti-establishment rabble-rouser types. How much of that is hot air or fanboy huffing (i.e. "Sega does what Nintendon't!") is up in the air, but basically the idea was Marvel was more edgy than DC.

    --The Fantastic Four aka the first family didn't have secret identities were explorers rather than a super-team and Ben Grimm keeps backbiting on Richards and Johnny Storm.
    --The X-Men protect and hate the world that fears them.
    --Spider-Man is the menace but also the nicest of all superheroes.

    In the middle of all this you have The Avengers who are establishment, government sponsored, high-powered superheroes who are feted and publicly loved. They are basically copypasta of the Justice League and to me the Avengers as a team is a case of Marvel deciding to basically become the new boss, same as the old boss.

    The fact that the Avengers were for most of their history filled with second-stringers and B and C List characters who can't front their own titles and who could be killed off and have embarrassing things happen to them or do embarrassing things made them interesting. Having Hank Pym build a genocide robot, abuse his wife, get kicked out and essentially quit as a superhero and become a civilian again isn't the kind of thing you can do with a banner title, but mostly they've made it work with Hank who has never really recovered, nor is recoverable, into becoming as he once was.

    For me the Avengers were most interesting in the 80s during Roger Stern's run. The other time I liked the Avengers was Hickman's run (where it's basically Fantastic Four but under "The Avengers" logo which you can do because the Avengers don't really have any lore of their own).

    The MCU's success with The Avengers for me isn't so much a vindication of the brand as the fact that the MCU did the team-up movie first. They beat DC to the race and put out Avengers before justice league, Thanos before Darkseid, Ultron before Brainiac (or Anti-Monitor or insert Evil-AI from DC). Justice League came first in comics and if WB/DC hadn't f--ked things so badly they could have gotten Justice League first and we might see a different ballgame.

    In either case, the Avengers comics haven't seen any fundamental sales rise with the movies, nor Iron Man for that matter. Mostly the comics have been the same as it always was and has seen no move in the needle either way.
    Isn't being mainly B/C-List 'underdog' in its own way?

    And how is F4 subversive or rebellious. They're about as standard as it gets

  3. #33
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    I 100% agree with the bolded.
    Thanks.

    To be honest, that charm of the Avengers is practically gone now. With the MCU, the Avengers have basically become the Justice League in fact. It'll be decades before DC/WB assuming it still exists in any functional enterprise, will have a shot at redefining the super-team in pop culture but that also means that the Avengers can't really do the kind of sandbox for rejected characters that it used to be because now almost everyone is Disney Plus or MCU material.

    The Avengers are also solidified more firmly. It used to be Thor/Tony/Cap but everyone else is in flux but now it's Thor/Tony/Cap/Carol/T'Challa. The big three are now the big five, and maybe that's good but it also means the team is more rigid now and less flexible.

    The greatest Avengers story for me is UNDER SIEGE and it's Cap and the extended Avengers team and you had Monica Rambeau play such a great part and it's sad to me that Rambeau didn't get to be Captain Marvel or define the brand as the first female Captain Marvel, it should have been her and not Carol Danvers who got there. (Nothing against Carol fans, yeah she got a lot of terrible things done to her as a character) and I know Mark Gruenwald has lately gotten some sentimental attention but a part of me is still not over him kneecapping Monica and pushing Stern off the title.
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Thanks.

    To be honest, that charm of the Avengers is practically gone now. With the MCU, the Avengers have basically become the Justice League in fact. It'll be decades before DC/WB assuming it still exists in any functional enterprise, will have a shot at redefining the super-team in pop culture but that also means that the Avengers can't really do the kind of sandbox for rejected characters that it used to be because now almost everyone is Disney Plus or MCU material.

    The Avengers are also solidified more firmly. It used to be Thor/Tony/Cap but everyone else is in flux but now it's Thor/Tony/Cap/Carol/T'Challa. The big three are now the big five, and maybe that's good but it also means the team is more rigid now and less flexible.

    The greatest Avengers story for me is UNDER SIEGE and it's Cap and the extended Avengers team and you had Monica Rambeau play such a great part and it's sad to me that Rambeau didn't get to be Captain Marvel or define the brand as the first female Captain Marvel, it should have been her and not Carol Danvers who got there. (Nothing against Carol fans, yeah she got a lot of terrible things done to her as a character) and I know Mark Gruenwald has lately gotten some sentimental attention but a part of me is still not over him kneecapping Monica and pushing Stern off the title.
    Yeah, I LOVED Under Siege.

    What happened with Monica Rambeau was criminal. As soon as Gruenwald left, the powers that be decided that Monica Rambeau was no longer "required".

    The Avengers now will always probably the big 5 which can be a restrictive for creators. It's same problem Giffen and DeMatteis ran into with the JL, they couldn't put together the proper roster because so much was being done them elsewhere. That's part of the reason the Maguire/DeMatties run on JL was brilliant, he could do practially anything with the team.

    It was the same with the Avengers, when the team wasn't packed with A-listers the writers could basically write virtually anything (including distasteful stuff like Carol Danvers getting raped by her own son.). Given how big the movies were, The Avengers team probably won't stray to far away from the movie lineup anytime soon.

  5. #35
    Astonishing Member Castle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post

    The MCU's success with The Avengers for me isn't so much a vindication of the brand as the fact that the MCU did the team-up movie first. They beat DC to the race and put out Avengers before justice league, Thanos before Darkseid, Ultron before Brainiac (or Anti-Monitor or insert Evil-AI from DC). Justice League came first in comics and if WB/DC hadn't f--ked things so badly they could have gotten Justice League first and we might see a different ballgame.
    Despite any negative feelings to DC and Snyderverse, I doubt DC would have changed much if it meant their Nolan films never happened or some of other other classics. Would DC give up the prestige of the The Dark Knight or the Joker just to have beaten MCU first with Darkseid and a Justice League movie? Highly unlikely.

    Ironically what some of these movies are doing now is making us even appreciate what we had before. Screen crush wrote this good piece of why Spiderman 2 is still the highest standard for all marvel films.

    https://screencrush.com/why-spider-man-2-is-so-popular/

    Would I even as a even a comic fan have sacrificed not having Logan, Deadpool or DOFP been made because I wanted disney to stop punishing xmen comics, because fox did not want to give the rights up back then? unlikely not. xmen comics had even peaked by then with the second coming saga in the mids 2010s, so it is not like marvel was still writing ground breaking xmen stories worth my full attention.

    The issue here is, even with all the chaos and complexity that came along, from the comics mid 90s, to marvel's bankruptcy, to Sony, DC and Fox having mix bags movies and the start of the MCU formula. I still would not change a thing that happened in the end, because it was during this time, Spiderman, X-MEN put out some of their finest outings in other areas like games, films and animations, even if their comics were getting erased or replaced or whatever we wanted to call it back then Disney was trying to do and as for DC, they are still showing you can keep comics and movies as two separate functioning entities.
    Last edited by Castle; 09-19-2021 at 11:34 PM.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The Avengers are also solidified more firmly. It used to be Thor/Tony/Cap but everyone else is in flux but now it's Thor/Tony/Cap/Carol/T'Challa. The big three are now the big five, and maybe that's good but it also means the team is more rigid now and less flexible.
    Yeah, this is not good since many of the B-listed Avengers are mostly in limbo and have no ongoing runs right now. (Sad Hawkeye noises.)

  7. #37
    The Celestial Dragon Tien Long's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I don't see how F4 ever were underdogs
    Not underdog, but outsider in a way. Revolutionary Jack mentions how they were explorers. That's somewhat outside the realm of being a superhero, for me at least. Also, there's The Thing.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by LAWtoyoto 432 View Post
    Yeah, this is not good since many of the B-listed Avengers are mostly in limbo and have no ongoing runs right now. (Sad Hawkeye noises.)
    So why exactly do people make fun of Avengers for having B-listers then complain when they're not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tien Long View Post
    Not underdog, but outsider in a way. Revolutionary Jack mentions how they were explorers. That's somewhat outside the realm of being a superhero, for me at least. Also, there's The Thing.
    It is outside of the realm of the regular superhero. But now I think they've become old-fashioned and outdated. They represent a lot of the more privileged group in comics, versus the more diverse heroes we see elsewhere

    I'm not sure how Thing is an underdog, unless you count him being Jewish

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The Avengers always felt like the least Marvel of all titles.

    Marvel rightly or wrongly has this ethos of being edgy anti-establishment rabble-rouser types. How much of that is hot air or fanboy huffing (i.e. "Sega does what Nintendon't!") is up in the air, but basically the idea was Marvel was more edgy than DC.

    --The Fantastic Four aka the first family didn't have secret identities were explorers rather than a super-team and Ben Grimm keeps backbiting on Richards and Johnny Storm.
    --The X-Men protect and hate the world that fears them.
    --Spider-Man is the menace but also the nicest of all superheroes.

    In the middle of all this you have The Avengers who are establishment, government sponsored, high-powered superheroes who are feted and publicly loved. They are basically copypasta of the Justice League and to me the Avengers as a team is a case of Marvel deciding to basically become the new boss, same as the old boss.

    The fact that the Avengers were for most of their history filled with second-stringers and B and C List characters who can't front their own titles and who could be killed off and have embarrassing things happen to them or do embarrassing things made them interesting. Having Hank Pym build a genocide robot, abuse his wife, get kicked out and essentially quit as a superhero and become a civilian again isn't the kind of thing you can do with a banner title, but mostly they've made it work with Hank who has never really recovered, nor is recoverable, into becoming as he once was.

    For me the Avengers were most interesting in the 80s during Roger Stern's run. The other time I liked the Avengers was Hickman's run (where it's basically Fantastic Four but under "The Avengers" logo which you can do because the Avengers don't really have any lore of their own).

    The MCU's success with The Avengers for me isn't so much a vindication of the brand as the fact that the MCU did the team-up movie first. They beat DC to the race and put out Avengers before justice league, Thanos before Darkseid, Ultron before Brainiac (or Anti-Monitor or insert Evil-AI from DC). Justice League came first in comics and if WB/DC hadn't f--ked things so badly they could have gotten Justice League first and we might see a different ballgame.

    In either case, the Avengers comics haven't seen any fundamental sales rise with the movies, nor Iron Man for that matter. Mostly the comics have been the same as it always was and has seen no move in the needle either way.
    Busiek had a great take on The Avengers.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Busiek had a great take on The Avengers.
    I agree on that statement since the way he writes Hawkeye, Wonder Man and Vision has the best interpretion that any writers nowadays since he get well along how to write them as compare being using them as a joke.

  11. #41
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    I "liked" Busiek's Avengers but I honestly didn't love it.

    At some points it was over-wordy (i think he was trying to harken back to earlier days) and I wasn't crazy how Thor was portrayed at times..he was too darn weak.

    It's one of the problems when the top characters are on the Avengers team, their depiction can always be a bit of a problem.

  12. #42
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    So why exactly do people make fun of Avengers for having B-listers then complain when they're not?



    It is outside of the realm of the regular superhero. But now I think they've become old-fashioned and outdated. They represent a lot of the more privileged group in comics, versus the more diverse heroes we see elsewhere

    I'm not sure how Thing is an underdog, unless you count him being Jewish
    The writers who are so beholden to the past that they forget that the FF are meant to be about new things are it's they're considered dated. Their core concept is timeless but the execution of it has been shoddy by writers who who want to relive the past and Marvel who doesn't know how to handle the team.
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  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    I "liked" Busiek's Avengers but I honestly didn't love it.

    At some points it was over-wordy (i think he was trying to harken back to earlier days) and I wasn't crazy how Thor was portrayed at times..he was too darn weak.

    It's one of the problems when the top characters are on the Avengers team, their depiction can always be a bit of a problem.
    Perhaps the main solo heroes should be treated more as 'guest stars' in the team book rather than getting all the focus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    The writers who are so beholden to the past that they forget that the FF are meant to be about new things are it's they're considered dated. Their core concept is timeless but the execution of it has been shoddy by writers who who want to relive the past and Marvel who doesn't know how to handle the team.
    That's possible. Nostalgia seems to be an overriding factor but to me, the old FF isn't much to be nostalgic about. Part of the problem is the team is too static, whereas X-Men and Avengers bring in new heroes, although Avengers currently seems to have a problem of focusing on the main solo guys at others' expense. But at least the Avengers have new diverse characters like Robbie Reyes. FF doesn't have anyone like that.

  14. #44
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    The Future Foundation felt to me like a natural evolution for the Fantastic Four and certainly one of the ways to overcome that static state.

  15. #45
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    One thing I do like about the Fantastic Four is that they didnt have that rotating roster that The Avengers and Xmen have. You could learn about the 4, watch them evolve and come to care about them in a way that you couldnt with the others. The Xmen have so many mutants now a days it is hard to keep track of who and who is doing what. At least it was like that for a long time, not sure about the Karoka era as I have only read a handful of iussies. But man for the longest time there always seemed to be a new mutant popping up or a new Xteam forming.

    The Avengers I dont mind the Blist but it does seem the focus has been on the main core guys since the movies. I have read some of the newer stuff and by that I mean 2014 and newer. And because the focus is on Cap, Tony and the other big guns the charm of the little guys, the C and D listers who could got lost in the shuffle.

    With the Fantastic Four I would love to see them leave Earth for a ling time. Go out and explore the universe. Or maybe other dimensions or something. Something to really update them and bring them back. I know they leave Earth and stuff but they always come back. Have them leave for an extended amount of time.
    Favorite teams. Alpha Flight, Avengers, Fantastic Four, West Coast Avengers, Justice Society of America, Legion of Superheroes.

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