Why "The Avengers" is not the same popular ties with FF, Spidey and X-Mens

[CosmiComic]

I'm saying that boorish fans will justify their hang ups/ grudges against certain characters by using nostalgia as an excuse. These people aren't actually nostalgic, they throw the word out to mask their true intentions.

I see. Yeah, that's true. While nostalgia can be a limiting factor, it also serves as a convenient cover for some fans' bigotry towards newer and more diverse characters

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Oh it definitely wasn't a safe formula, just that having more characters can make the team as a whole more interesting, also giving characters a break.

It did provide variety and interest and possibilities to introduce new ideas and stuff. I am currently reading the full Claremont run (i.e. all issues of Uncanny, New Mutants, Excalibur, X-Men Classic) and the amazing thing is that it's so consistent and constantly engaging. It's a year long project and I'm up to Uncanny #150, and I've read all of CC's New Mutants already and the Classic X-Men backups (which are basically some of the most gorgeous, well-written and experimental stuff with X-Men) and I never felt like this was some checklist.

[I actually have read some individual one or two-parters before but never in sequence].

Specially under Lee and Kirby, while the scientist side was cool, it's more so because of the cool tech he came up with, his character was just a boring 50's sexist husband back then, he also seemed like he was an ass for no reason in random issues I've read, though maybe those ones could be him joking a bit.

No, Lee-Kirby Reed was definitely a piece of work or a work of piece. But it probably wasn't intended that he be unsympathetic. I mean if you read classic comics a lot of characters come off as unintentionally jerkish, like '50s Superman is basically a sexist a--hole next to whom even Reed is a feminist. The way Superman treated female characters in his comics in that time was far worse and the reason was it was written for kids and the "Girls=Cooties" crowd. Some part of that is also there in Fantastic Four (though it's surprisingly absent in Amazing Spider-Man, not that it didn't have other issues).

Yeah, leaders don't necessarily have to be the best written character, or even the strongest character, being reliable and competent is usually the best reason for a character to be a leader.

You look at Star Wars and Harry Potter, and the characters who people want to be or imitate are Han or Hermione, neither of whom are the leaders.

To get back to the Fantastic Four, for me they are still pretty charming creations and done right (like with Hickman) they can still be a fount of ideas and inspiration. For instance Hickman introduced the Council of Reeds building an entire multiversal city, and fast-forward to Rick and Morty and you have the Council of Ricks and their Citadel which is a big part of popular culture these days. So Fantastic Four and especially recent runs of FF (i.e. non-nostalgia runs) can still have an influence on popular culture. Let's not forget that Secret Wars 2015 which is Marvel's biggest event in the last decade was a Fantastic Four story essentially, with the only Avengers featured prominently in the main event being FF-adjacent characters like T'Challa and Namor.

I don't know how well Hickman's run on Fantastic Four sold but it was certainly the only FF run after Lee-Kirby and Byrne I felt I had to track. And Hickman made the kids - Franklin and Valeria - into essential parts of the Family.

[CosmiComic]

Well, there's a difference between being influential, and being relevant or still workable.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Well, there's a difference between being influential, and being relevant or still workable.

If one of the most popular new cartoon shows - Rick and Morty -- currently on air uses ideas from one of the most recent runs, I'd say the evidence points towards being influential, relevant, and workable.

The Fantastic Four attracts a lot of nostalgia because it has a lot to be nostalgic about but I don't see any reason why it's any more dated or irrelevant than any superhero comic that Marvel has, or any more dated than Superman, or Spider-Man or Batman. I mean Batman literally doesn't make sense as any kind of believable character especially given the events of the last decade, yet he's still in publication, right?

It depends on how you do it. But that's true for everything.

[CosmiComic]

If one of the most popular new cartoon shows - Rick and Morty -- currently on air uses ideas from one of the most recent runs, I'd say the evidence points towards being influential, relevant, and workable.

The Fantastic Four attracts a lot of nostalgia because it has a lot to be nostalgic about but I don't see any reason why it's any more dated or irrelevant than any superhero comic that Marvel has, or any more dated than Superman, or Spider-Man or Batman. I mean Batman literally doesn't make sense as any kind of believable character especially given the events of the last decade, yet he's still in publication, right?

It depends on how you do it. But that's true for everything.

I just think the nuclear family-esque concept is dated in the way it's often done. Batman and Spider-Man are singular characters who join big groups. Whereas F4 is a static team that lacks diversity and has problematic depictions of relationships at times. And tbh, even Batman and Spider-Man have outdated and cliche concepts in their lore, too.

[From The Shadows]

I personally think of Reed and Sue as a snore of a couple. But I would not want them separated only because every Marvel couple seems to have broken up or divorced. Though that whole slapping thing really was close with me. I just chalk it up to Byrne/CC usual BS back then.

[Crimz]

I personally think of Reed and Sue as a snore of a couple. But I would not want them separated only because every Marvel couple seems to have broken up or divorced. Though that whole slapping thing really was close with me. I just chalk it up to Byrne/CC usual BS back then.

Things like this are kind of the problem. You don't like the couple but think they should stay together for prosperity, that's what's wrong with most FF runs. Things that need to be tweaked or changed aren't because of "it's always been like that". I don't want Reed and Sue to split up, but their relationship tends to be either boringly cookie-cutter or toxic. The toxic moments are exaggerated as they don't happen often, but the boring and mundane interactions happen often. Only very few writers make them interesting.

I need to be done lol
This thread isn't about my grievances with the Fantastic Four.

[Frontier]

I just think the nuclear family-esque concept is dated in the way it's often done. Batman and Spider-Man are singular characters who join big groups. Whereas F4 is a static team that lacks diversity and has problematic depictions of relationships at times. And tbh, even Batman and Spider-Man have outdated and cliche concepts in their lore, too.

I don't think that's really representative of the group at its heart. They are just different from Batman and Spider-Man who have their own hangups as a franchise and in how they expand/work stuff into their mythos.

[Panic]

To get back to the Fantastic Four, for me they are still pretty charming creations and done right (like with Hickman) they can still be a fount of ideas and inspiration. For instance Hickman introduced the Council of Reeds building an entire multiversal city, and fast-forward to Rick and Morty and you have the Council of Ricks and their Citadel which is a big part of popular culture these days. So Fantastic Four and especially recent runs of FF (i.e. non-nostalgia runs) can still have an influence on popular culture.

But isn't the Council of Reeds just a derivative of the Council of Cross-Time Kangs, introduced in Simonson's The Avengers in 1988?

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I personally think of Reed and Sue as a snore of a couple.

So? Some couples are snores. It's fine. Not everyone can be hip and charismatic as Peter/MJ.

The Fantastic Four is about a team and not everyone can be the coolest person on the team. And besides, Reed/Sue have pretty charismatic kids in Franklin and especially Valeria.

But isn't the Council of Reeds just a derivative of the Council of Cross-Time Kangs, introduced in Simonson's The Avengers in 1988?

Meh.

[Crimz]

So? Some couples are snores. It's fine. Not everyone can be hip and charismatic as Peter/MJ.

The Fantastic Four is about a team and not everyone can be the coolest person on the team. And besides, Reed/Sue have pretty charismatic kids in Franklin and especially Valeria.

They don't need to be, but they should be interesting to read at the very least. This is entertainment at the end of the day and honestly, the relationship needs to be improved.

No one said that they need to be the coolest, but Sue in particular needs better characterization and development.

[CosmiComic]

I don't think that's really representative of the group at its heart. They are just different from Batman and Spider-Man who have their own hangups as a franchise and in how they expand/work stuff into their mythos.

Isn't it though? It seems to be a common recurring thing about the F4

They don't need to be, but they should be interesting to read at the very least. This is entertainment at the end of the day and honestly, the relationship needs to be improved.

No one said that they need to be the coolest, but Sue in particular needs better characterization and development.

Sue definitely needs more. I'm not sure what her personality or job or motivation is.

[John Venus]

The problem is his borderline sexist behavior is never really confronted. He acts uncaring and distant and Sue just stays with it. How's that a good relationship?

Reed of the 60's represents the values and attitudes of someone in the 60's when such behavior wasn't realized to be sexist and demeaning. Reed of the 00's represent the values of today.

You're not the first person to realize both Reed and Ben were problematic back then and there is a reason why those aspects of characters were phased out and today it would be considered out of character for Reed or Ben to make the kind of comments they did.

I realize it's from the 60s but I think the comics should try to lessen that about Reed. Because for me, that does seem true to his character, but he doesn't seem to evolve. Sue being bland doesn't help her at all in that respect

Has modern Reed ever shown any sexist or off putting behavior?

Sue being bland or not is a matter of taste. I like her dynamic with Johnny, Reed and Ben. Plus she has a cool versatile power and went from being the weakest member to it's strongest.

I just think the nuclear family-esque concept is dated in the way it's often done. Batman and Spider-Man are singular characters who join big groups. Whereas F4 is a static team that lacks diversity and has problematic depictions of relationships at times. And tbh, even Batman and Spider-Man have outdated and cliche concepts in their lore, too.

Comics aren't exactly drowning in nuclear families. We may have more superhero families now but very few where the every member feels like they're on an equal standing and has the same longevity and consistency the FF have.

[CosmiComic]

Reed of the 60's represents the values and attitudes of someone in the 60's when such behavior wasn't realized to be sexist and demeaning. Reed of the 00's represent the values of today.

You're not the first person to realize both Reed and Ben were problematic back then and there is a reason why those aspects of characters were phased out and today it would be considered out of character for Reed or Ben to make the kind of comments they did.



Has modern Reed ever shown any sexist or off putting behavior?

I'm not sure

Sue being bland or not is a matter of taste. I like her dynamic with Johnny, Reed and Ben. Plus she has a cool versatile power and went from being the weakest member to it's strongest

IMO the only cool thing about her is her power. What else does she have? What does she do or like besides her family? Because to me, she comes off like a 60s housewife.

Comics aren't exactly drowning in nuclear families. We may have more superhero families now but very few where the every member feels like they're on an equal standing and has the same longevity and consistency the FF have.

Maybe I'd like the concept if I thought the characters were interesting. But the 50s style Americana throwback family doesn't really appeal to me. Groups like the X-Men and Avengers have their own unique and diverse dynamics not just typified by being related.

[cam18]

Before the All-New, All-Different X-Men took the world by storm, in the late 70's, no one, even many who read comics, even knew they existed. The individual Avengers, such as Thor, Iron Man, Captain America (sometimes even Vision, Hercules and Hawkeye) ruled the merchandizing and even had cartoons. After the early 80's the X-Men took over and became the golden boys having their pick of top tier artists and dominating the mechandizing. Then came the MCU, and that oicture was reversed again. All in all, as someone has mentioned, other than, arguably, Wolverine, the X-Men characters only achieve success through the team, while a few of the Avengers get to stand out on their own apart from the team. Spider Man always stood out on his own, and, generally the FF fall into the same situation as the X-Men.

Peace

In The Case of Spiderman unlike some of the other solo heroes he was never really an Avengers character like that if anything he was added to the franchise because of his immense popularity and marketability he is franchise to himself is probably the bigger franchise at that.