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  1. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Since it was brought up - I always thought First Class was a massively overrated but really mediocre movie that's kind of middle of the list for X-Men movies for me.
    There, I said it.
    Quote Originally Posted by I'm a Fish View Post
    I agree, never got the appeal of that movie.

    And I hated that Mystique was stuck to Magneto and Xavier hips. She has a way cooler backstory than Charles, she didn't need to be apart of his origin. And I hate that she's Magneto's goon.
    I still don't personally think First Class cracks the top 3 of the x-films. That been said, where I will give first class its fair honest credit is that Mathew Vaughn was indeed different from Bryan Singer in ways that were good and I can agree to some parts where better. I dont see any MCU movie in any lifetime writing a comic book plot around the Cold war, Cuba missiles crises and about prejudice and discrimination. No I dont just see that in an MCU movie that can be done that seriously as first class took it.

    First Class also had some very good technical aspect like the music score, sound mixing, vfx and the cinematography. the cinematography of first class is unique. the way it changes every time to match a certain place was fantastic, I am not sure why many comic films have not even thought off that kind of trick in film making. The scenes in England with Xavier and Mystique in bar that was very Victorian Oliver Twist era and then you shift more to the scene when Magneto goes to Argentina and the movies colour grading changes again and then going back to Germany in world war 2 where it is just a different atmosphere.

    One of the things that many comic films lack is not not knowing how to have their film adapt to certain scenes or period. a comic film can travel to a place like brazil, italy or somewhere else and it will still look like they are in the USA? lol. what I am even writing here is hilarious now, when I think no MCU XMEN director will even get a chance to explore that kind of directing again on their own terms, lol. I mean I did say when I say the first shang chi trailer[/B] heck I even said, Shang Chi and Captain Marvel were twin flames. those were the exact words I used.

    https://community.cbr.com/showthread...l-Teaser/page2

    This was 5 months back before Dennis Villeneive in seeing how copy and paste marvel has become even from a trailer. First Class is not a copy and paste of anything. it is a Mathew Vaughn movie and a special one time entry to the x-franchise. it is an individual film that does not feel plagiarised.

    I do think first class can be considered overrated in the larger X-Universe adaption of stories, like Legion, Logan, X2, The 4th season and first season of X-MEN Evolution and X-MEN TAS. however for MCU standard, if First class was an MCU. it would have been best picture Oscar nominated movie. Maybe that is why some also feel why it is so overrated, because people see it that great of a film next to an standard MCU formulaic action comedy that don't properly even know there was a Cold War crises in the 60s that was important enough to be the main outline of a superhero film or may have missed the quite subtle intellectual refences of Xavier and Magneto sitting on the steps of the Lincoln memorial disusing civil right issues in the 60s both in terms of metaphors and the aftermath of the Jewish holocaust and the speech Martin Luther King gave.

    50662075bb6858cbe7c6687986648f17.jpg


    First can still be seen as overrated even with everything it has going for it but it is still outclasses the MCU cgi driven action comedies with simple easiness.
    Last edited by Castle; 09-26-2021 at 03:53 AM.

  2. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conn Seanery View Post
    He made a film that was almost completely comprised of CGI environments and characters, not to mention the lead character was literally controlling an avatar. It doesn't get more video-gamey than that.
    I disagree and I feel the conception of video game here is getting very misunderstood.

    In film and I mean general visual cinema, when we say a movie looks like a video game it used to be, the cgi is bad or the cgi looked cheap and the budget was not enough or the director is not just good with big budget films and maybe should stick more to little indie films.[B] I don't think we can view any James Cameron movie that way. We cannot put any of James Cameron movies in those class of bad cgi, or lack of film budget or say James Cameron is talentless.

    Avatar is an artistic visual movie that feature mostly non looking human beings with the Navi's but they dont looked like video games. they just looked like new age movie aliens, it was almost like Cameron was updating Steven Spielberg Close Encounters of the Third kind with the ''Alien'' concept.

    With Cameron and Marvel, it is almost the equivalent of Albert Einstein saying people perceived time differently if they are moving in different motion. By James Cameron own perceived time, his own Avatar 2009 film is already dated. he had to wait almost 7 years of the Technology to be created for his dream to make Avtar 2 because Cameron has already executed everything in his head like a painter before his paints his art, years before another director even learns what basic computer graphics are. MCU has not even yet attempted to use the visual style of Avatar 2009 that for Cameron is now dated. this is far behind MCU is next to a Cameron film.

    People bring up comic films or sci fiction or star wars fantasy a lot about VFX and I know this story well as a early 2000s film boomer. I still remember the film summer of year 2003, there were tons of discussion of Matrix 2003 and X-MEN 2. film fans and even critics were shocked to see how Bryan Singer visual style had improved so much that it outclassed the matrix reloaded sequel, which would and should have been seen as an impossible feat. The Nightcrawler scene at the Whitehouse is still a technical leap in comic films no MCU film has reached and after almost 21 years.

    Fast forward 9 years later, To those that were flabbergasted and even over hyped the Quicksilver scene in DOFP, if they were paying any attention to film making crafting, it should have come as no surprise that Singer could do that because he was already 9 years ahead with X2 in learning news way to do visual style in comic films, even the plane scene in Superman Returns, is still light years ahead of any the current MCU CGI.

    MCU Disney were ofcoruse surprised this is why they had no choice but to kill of their own quicksilver and I see that as one of the consequences of the cooperate manufactured film making style that ''takes cares of everything'' as Marvel told Lucrecia Martel about her role as a the ''director'' of Black Widow. when you take care of everything you get a film like black widow with really video game cgi.

    And for marvel, I think it is fair and right that some directors are not be leting them off so easily like Denis Villeneuve or Scorsese or Cameron because they have more money unlike other studios and they don't need a one style formula. Dennis Villeneuve Arrival only cost 47 million dollars in budget. lol. That is less than RDJ Salary playing Tony Stark in one film and Scar Jo will likely make more than that if Marvel settles her law suit.

    It really should make no sense that Arrival has better VFX and better story alien concept to Infinity Wars that cost more than 250 million dollars because money in Hollywood also means, better screen writers. This is why the CW network in general is just seen as bad tv because everything in CW from the writing to the production value comes cheap.

    Last edited by Castle; 09-26-2021 at 04:11 AM.

  3. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conn Seanery View Post
    He made a film that was almost completely comprised of CGI environments and characters, not to mention the lead character was literally controlling an avatar. It doesn't get more video-gamey than that.
    Quoted for truth. It's an undeniable statement of fact, quite frankly
    "Overturn everything! Can't he just write an executive order that says: 'Everything Trump did is now overturned. F**k that guy.' signed, Joe Biden."

  4. #139
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Wait!
    We are now being told this scene is superior to anything in Matrix Reloaded? There is zero cutting edge FX in this scene. It's a nice scene and all, but nothing to be amazed at.

    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

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    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    Quoted for truth. It's an undeniable statement of fact, quite frankly
    It is really.

    Funny thing about Avatar is that watching it on TV without the 3-D stuff makes it look much less spectacular.

    The effects are still amazing but it doesn't have the "sheen" that it had watching back then with the 3-D.

  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    It is really.

    Funny thing about Avatar is that watching it on TV without the 3-D stuff makes it look much less spectacular.

    The effects are still amazing but it doesn't have the "sheen" that it had watching back then with the 3-D.
    I never got the backlash about Avatar. I mean I get that it was rehash of a story told a million times. Granted. But many movies are rehashes of stories told a million times.

  7. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by inisideguy View Post
    I never got the backlash about Avatar. I mean I get that it was rehash of a story told a million times. Granted. But many movies are rehashes of stories told a million times.
    I think it just came down to the lack of originality.

    Beyond the story, there was very, very little original about the movie.

    Worse still, it had the "white (in this case- "colonizer") savior trope. Sam Worthington's character could communicate with their "great tree" or something better than the natives.

    I personally never really regarded Avatar very highly but that's just my opinion.

  8. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    I think it just came down to the lack of originality.

    Beyond the story, there was very, very little original about the movie.

    Worse still, it had the "white (in this case- "colonizer") savior trope. Sam Worthington's character could communicate with their "great tree" or something better than the natives.

    I personally never really regarded Avatar very highly but that's just my opinion.


    Hmmmm I see your point about the colonizer savior trope. I wouldn't ever say that Avatar was original in its script in anyway shape or form. But it was still entertaining to me.

  9. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by inisideguy View Post
    Hmmmm I see your point about the colonizer savior trope. I wouldn't ever say that Avatar was original in its script in anyway shape or form. But it was still entertaining to me.
    Oh yeah, as a piece of work it's an entertaining movie.

    It's a fun popcorn movie.
    Last edited by Username taken; 09-27-2021 at 02:58 PM.

  10. #145
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    It is really.

    Funny thing about Avatar is that watching it on TV without the 3-D stuff makes it look much less spectacular.

    The effects are still amazing but it doesn't have the "sheen" that it had watching back then with the 3-D.
    `Well, that is not surprising, Cameron made the movie specifically to highlight his new 3D tech.

    He has stated that he wanted the story simple so people would not get distracted from the visuals.

    This was a common criticism, so I wonder if Avatar 2 and 3 will have more complex stories?
    Last edited by Kirby101; 09-27-2021 at 03:08 PM.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    `Well, that is not surprising, Cameron made the movie specifically to highlight his new 3D tech.

    He has stated that he wanted the story simple so people would not get distracted from the visuals.

    This was a common criticism, so I wonder if Avatar 2 and 3 will have more complex stories?
    Hopefully.

    I've read the movie is going to "dive" (pun fully intended) more into Na'vi culture. I suspect its going to be more complex than the first one.

    Although Cameron isn't really known for complex scripts, his movies tend to be very straightfoward and fairly simple.

  12. #147
    of House Bolton Ramsay Snow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    It is really.

    Funny thing about Avatar is that watching it on TV without the 3-D stuff makes it look much less spectacular.

    The effects are still amazing but it doesn't have the "sheen" that it had watching back then with the 3-D.

    Yeah, I enjoyed the film at the theater. Amazing special effects, which made up for the subpar script. I remember buying the blu-ray when it came out, wondering how good it'll look at home.....I can't watch the movie at home. Without those visuals at the theater, it's a really dull film.
    Last edited by Conn Seanery; 09-27-2021 at 06:46 PM.

  13. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    Wait!
    We are now being told this scene is superior to anything in Matrix Reloaded? There is zero cutting edge FX in this scene. It's a nice scene and all, but nothing to be amazed at.
    Yes we were told that by even more snobby film critics that hate any kind of cgi in a movie, For the comic genre, X2 being a prelude to Spiderman 2 had one of the most cutting edge landmark styles of VFX in the genre. Matrix reloaded was sharply criticised for many reasons I cant even begin to type, but I will just summarize it by saying, The Wachowskis dropped the ball and they abused the CGI in Matrix 2. This is visually inferior to X2.


    The Wachowskis did everything not to do that Singer knew what to do. first of all, never make your movie messy. What also made the VFX of the Nightcrawler scene cutting edge is How Singer filmed it, not to mentioned how he combined many VFX elements that still made it very believable to think someone could do this at the Whitehouse.

    Nightcrawler's teleportation, he worked his cameras where we could see things from various angles or POV all at once, we the audiences POV, nightcrawler's on POV and the president/security guards POV. In that scene where the president says in shock says ''my god'' and the camera still cuts to Kurt teleporting at different points was a piece in visual directing.

    I dont even think the Russos know a lot about that but, that is what made X2 cutting edge in visual making as well also in cinematography. because cinematography is just not about colour grading, it is also about how a director use frames his camera angles and the fact that Singer captured many point of views in that one scene alone with a visual style that did not look cartoonish or overly comic bookie is what was acclaimed.

    Take it from me to you that was told that Shang CHI had great CGI when really it doesn't and has been already talked about by critics in their reviews that the cgi of shang cgi was bad, the only issue is, I dont know why some critics need to defend and explain why shang cgi has bad cgi in a way we are asked to be more understanding.

    https://screenrant.com/shang-chi-cgi...son-explained/
    Why Shang-Chi's CGI Is So Bad
    While reviews for Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings have been overwhelmingly positive, the movie's CGI has left critics wanting.


    This is also a reason comic film reviews now are laughable and untrustworthy. Movies like Shang Chi lowers the standard, thereby opening the doors for directors like Dennis Villeneuve to do the jobs critics are not doing properly.
    Last edited by Castle; 09-27-2021 at 06:24 PM.

  14. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramsay Snow View Post
    Yeah, I enjoyed the film at the theater. Amazing special effects, which made up for the subpar script. I remember buying the blu-ray when it came out, wondering how good it'll look at home.....I can't watch the movie at home. Without those visuals at the theater, it's a really dull film
    Also I dont see how anyone cannot make the same arguments that marvel has subpar scripts also if we are comparing it to Avatar, a lot of the times, it is the main reason many other marvel fans, maybe us more in the older era from the 90s have and will continue to question the mostly fixed Marvel light hearted action comedy approach. these are gatways to subpar scripts in comic films due to the nature of superheroes. Avatar's Script next to marvel was helped a lot more because of the tone of the film. It was still very T2 and very Cameron.
    Last edited by Conn Seanery; 09-27-2021 at 06:47 PM.

  15. #150
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    Wait!
    We are now being told this scene is superior to anything in Matrix Reloaded? There is zero cutting edge FX in this scene. It's a nice scene and all, but nothing to be amazed at.

    Kind of depends what you mean by superior - sure, Reloaded had better FX. But, this scene was better scripted than any of the confusing crap that happened in Reloaded.

    Course, I might be biased - I'm not a fan of the Matrix sequels and only watch the original Matrix sometimes still. And yet I'll still watch Resurrections hoping it won't be a mess...

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