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  1. #91
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    If all movies were manufactured, it would mean every director has no distinction from the other and that we know that is a lie. we know a Tarantino movie or a Nolan movie or Spielberg movie when we see one. To say all movies are manufactured is to make Scorsese right that marvel movies are not offering much to people about discovering artistic cinema, this is what he was worried about. You may be proving him right since Scorsese does not and has never made a manufactured movie.
    All movies are manufactured. Scorcese's movies are 100% manufactured.

    Unless you mean "commercial" and Scorcese has done a ton of commercial movies.

    This is not a thread about success though, although one thing this generation is very famous for compared to the 90s is that people can be successful with zero talent. the Kardashians, Autotuned Singers and Instagram Models. marvel is successful yes, because they are part of a big Disney brand that has worked but let's compare their movies to James Cameron billion dollar movies and see how marvel movies hold up artistically.
    Apart from Titanic, T2 and Aliens, I would say some Marvel movies are better James Cameron's. Infinity War or Black Panther are far better than Avatar which was just totally derivative and worse still had the "white savior" trope. Very unoriginal.

    It also does not matter that marvel is more successful than Fox or Sony, the good Fox and good Sony movies are far less stigmatised than marvel movies are and their critical reception holds up better because a good sony or fox movie showed that comic films don't have to play into the narrative that MCU has now. please just look at this thread
    Opinions in thread are completely irrelevant. What sample size are you looking at? 10- 12 people out of millions?

    Success matters here, that's why Scorcese and Villeneuve even answered questions about the MCU in the first place.

    https://community.cbr.com/showthread...n-Rights/page2

    If it was left to Spiderman fans, they will want him to leave the MCU and I am pretty sure Spiderman fans know that his last movie made a billion dollars. lol. So for fans success is not enough. Many fans that grew up in the post batman and robin era valued authentic film making over financial success.
    A tiny sample size doesn't mean anything. If you could point to a poll that answered the questions of a much larger number of people than I would agree.

    While I agree that marvel was the first to pull off an MCU, this is just enough even in the genre, Recently the No Way Home trailer has not been really well received. Do we really need to see Dr Orc back? Nostalgia, gimmick, hype, reusing of the mcu formula? we can call it whatever we want, but is that movie going to change the conversation that comics films can show the horrors of the holocaust like any real war movie as X-MEN 1 did? likely not.
    Where did you get it from that the trailer for No Way Home wasn't well received? The hype and discussions around it have been unreal.

    All these directors seem to be against marvel because they see it as a gimmick. why is James Mangold, the director of Logan not so seduced by the MCU? Also why is Patty Jenkins of Wonder Woman telling people to get over Crossover movies and she has no plan to make wonder woman like MCU tie in films?
    Mangold has only made one (1) truly great superhero movie and that was Logan. Marvel isn't missing anything by not working him for now.

    You bring Coogler, Waititi and the Russo but these directors have yet to really archive an real comic book artistic uniqueness in the genre like Nolan, Singer or Raimi did just with one film, despite the insane media hype their MCU movies got. with these directors for you us to argue their talent we have to use their not mcu movies. whereas with a director like Nolan or Singer you can Inception is dark knight, the Usual Suspects is X2.
    I don't know about this. Coogler got a best pic nom for his work while none of the directors mentioned did. I would argue that the Dark Knight should have a gotten a nomination but that discussion led to the Oscars increasing the Best Pictures nominees category, I suspect if it came out years later it would have gotten a nomination. Singer's X-men movies on the other hand..not in a million years.

    We cannot make any arguments that Black Panther is Judas and the black script or thor 3 is jojo rabbit. lol, this aren't Disney kid friendly movies that followed a formula. Marvel is wasting these directors. Look at the joy Gunn has shown with SS 2? are we going to say, oh because SS2 flopped and was not a success, it does not matter than Gunn said, his time on SS2 is the best he has ever had creatively as a director?
    But this isn't true, Gunn is coming back to do GoTG. If Gunn didn't enjoy it, he wouldn't come back to do it and I'm pretty sure that Gunn will be VERY UNHAPPY that SS2 flopped.

    Many of these director like James Mangold and Dune Villeneuve are not crazy, mean spirited or fucking assholes. In fact Denis would have been perfect for an X-MEN movie. his style will fit xmen well because Denis can do compelling stories, use grounded cinemetherapy, merged down adult themes to pg 13 and Denis, thanks to his films like Blade Runner and Arrival can do vfx in way that does not come off bombastic or like theme ride commercial that ruins the entire 3rd arc of a film, which is how on a good day, x-men films are better done but the fact that it will never happen, makes marvel look bad and not him, so yeah I refute him been called an asshole by anyone.
    I'm not saying those guys are mean spirited, just that they sound like assholes...jealous ones at that. Mangold in particular sounds very silly because he was a part of the Fox X-men movie machine.

    But I'm personally happy the X-men are back with Marvel. I have no doubt the MCU will handle the X-men better than Fox ever did. I don't really care about the movie's rating, I just care that it's good.
    Last edited by Username taken; 09-24-2021 at 07:42 AM.

  2. #92
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    The MCU is the film/television version of Motown Records (in my opinion):

    https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cul...e-berry-gordy/

    You take the rawest blues, gospel and jazz music and polish it to make it palatable to wider audiences by using a huge variety of songwriters, studio musicians and recording artists. You have a formula for success. Commercially successful and critically acclaimed. Holland-Dozier-Holland and Norman Whitfield were geniuses in my view. But Berry Gordy was the man behind the success of this record label. A revolutionary in my view. I also want to add that Chet Atkins/Owen Bradley did the same thing with country music. Before the 1950s, country and folk music was just too "rootsy" for American listeners to embrace on a massive scale. By giving the music a pop sensibility by using a wide variety of songwriters, studio musicians and recording artists, the Nashville sound produced many MANY hits:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nashville_sound

    Kevin Feige is the producing/executive equivalent of Berry Gordy. He takes some of the greatest action/adventure stories from the comic books, but removes the silliest and most ridiculous elements from them to make them commercially viable on-screen. Now, if the artists behind the MCU productions start to chafe at Feige's restrictions on their creative freedom, there could be trouble down the line. But I think Feige is doing his best to make and keep them happy.
    Last edited by Albert1981; 09-24-2021 at 07:35 AM.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    The MCU is the film/television version of Motown Records (in my opinion):

    https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cul...e-berry-gordy/

    You take the rawest blues, gospel and jazz music and polish it to make it palatable to wider audiences by using a huge variety of songwriters, studio musicians and recording artists. You have a formula for success. Commercially successful and critically acclaimed. Holland-Dozier-Holland and Norman Whitfield were geniuses in my view. But Berry Gordy was the man behind the success of this record label. A revolutionary in my view. I also want to add that Chet Atkins/Owen Bradley did the same thing with country music. Before the 1950s, country and folk music was just too "rootsy" for American listeners to embrace on a massive scale. By giving the music a pop sensibility by using a wide variety of songwriters, studio musicians and recording artists, the Nashville sound produced many MANY hits:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nashville_sound

    Kevin Feige is the producing/executive equivalent of Berry Gordy. He takes some of the greatest action/adventure stories from the comic books, but removes the silliest and most ridiculous elements from them to make them commercially viable on-screen. Now, if the artists behind the MCU productions start to chafe at Feige's restrictions on their creative freedom, there could be trouble down the line. But I think Feige is doing his best to make and keep them happy.
    Interesting comparison.

    I never thought about it like that.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    All movies are manufactured. Scorcese's movies are 100% manufactured.

    Unless you mean "commercial" and Scorcese has done a ton of commercial movies.
    I recently say a 7 part documentary produced by tom hanks about the history of movies from the silent era to the present. to make a case all movies are manufactured is to say everybody in that commentary that commented from Hanks, to Spielberg to Julia Roberts to Sharon Stone to using old clips from Alfred Hitchock all of them were just saying nonsense and that my dear friend is A step too far, even way too far than seeing the great Saving Private Ryan get almost dismissed by some just because MCU cannot do R or show the violence of war. It will be making a far worse case to say all movies are manufactured than that.

    It is not really a sample. it is just common with Spiderman readers, that if you read many Spiderman comics, high chances you will like MCU Spiderman the least, he is after all the least most faithful to the comics.

    Success does not matter here, in fact success is not even the main topic of this thread, the main topic is that Dennis implied all MCU movies are an artistic counterfeit by saying they are all copy and paste. that is the main topic. Dennis never mentioned money.

    Actually Coolger best picture nomination has nothing to with art. Maybe we need to check the thread I once made why the oscars ratings went down. The Dark Knight and Logan were deserving of best pictures and the top 3 singer xmen films will be more prone to best picture , if the oscars cared about comics books, Oscar will not go for MCU films because of their very cooperate nature and the truth that their movies don't have enough heavy mature content.

    lol t is pretty much true that everyone knows that Black Panther and Killmonger are a watered down version of Singer story telling of Magneto and Xavier from the X-MEN films. Even Michael B Jordan claimed they borrow from that but this difference is that, While Singer did something new by showing a more intellectual narrative of comic books with Xavier and Magneto as rivals and comic films more as a grounded dramas were the two don't even fight. MCU made Coogler go for the most generic story telling style with black panther, add that also to the really bad CGI of the movie that a Singer film like X2 with the Nightcrawler scene holds up better. This is what the Oscar are about when they choose to go only for merit.

    And it is pretty much true that not one MCU movie even has the VFX or even adult drama style of the later Singer movies, MCU had to kill off their own quicksilvler because their movies could not compete with DOFP as a film and the first thing MCU has done was even drag Evan Peters to Wandavision, It was Singer movies that made him a star. Again , you can say it is my opinions but I am making them from the actual events that happened.

    MCU films because of their more kid friendly cooperate nature driven by cgi and jokes look very off when they stand next to the singer xmen films because in truth, Singer was allowed to tell any story he wanted and Singer got full control as a director. they dont wear costumes in his movies. marvel needs the costumes for toys, this is what the oscars will support with Singer. MCU films are not allowed to tell any story they want, we know these for fact with Iron Man 3 not allowing the demon in a bottle story line, although it was easy for Singer to show another character using drugs heavily and self mutilating their bodies. it is laughable to even make a case that MCU would have told Days Of Future Past or God Loves Man Kills like Singer was allowed too. Unless I missed the memo that MCU has chosen to move beyond action light hearted comedy usually done to appeal to kids in great importance.

    For MCU to handle them better than fox did, it will mean MCU cannot make the films they are making now but the reality is that MCU can only make the films they are making now. so no they objectively cannot handle them better even for a simple logical reason that in 2021 there is no need for X2 or DOFP to be PG 13 because their content allows more than that.


    But this isn't true, Gunn is coming back to do GoTG.
    He is but this does not change what he said about SS2. Please we cannot ignore that.

    And lastly , Both Avatar and Titanic and Terminator 1 and 2 are not in the same cinema class of mcu films. I don't think anyone should even go there. lol
    Last edited by Castle; 09-24-2021 at 08:49 AM.

  5. #95
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    I recently say a 7 part documentary produced by tom hanks about the history of movies from the silent era to the present. to make a case all movies are manufactured is to say everybody in that commentary that commented from Hanks, to Spielberg to Julia Roberts to Sharon Stone to using old clips from Alfred Hitchock all of them were just saying nonsense and that my dear friend is A step too far, even way too far than seeing the great Saving Private Ryan get almost dismissed by some just because MCU cannot do R or show the hardship of war. It will be making a far worse case to say all movies are manufactured than that.
    I repeat..all movies are manufactured.

    Some are more or less commercial.

    It is not really a sample. it is just common with Spiderman readers, that if you read many Spiderman comics, high chances you will like MCU Spiderman the least, he is after all the least most faithful to the comics.
    MCU Spider-man for my money is much, much better than Sony's last efforts which were horrible.

    Success does not matter here, in fact success is not even the main topic of this thread, the main topic is that Dennis implied all MCU movies are an artistic counterfeits by saying they are all copy and paste. that is the main topic. Dennis never mention money.
    That's not what he said though. Even if it was, does his word carry more weight than other film makers that disagree with him?

    Actually Coolger best picture nomination has nothing to with art. Maybe we need to check the thread I once made why the oscars ratings went down. The Dark Knight and Logan were deserving of best pictures and the top 3 singer xmen films will be more prooe of best picture than any MCU film , so will be the best of the Raimi Sony films if the oscars cared bought about comics books, Oscar will not go for MCU films because of their very cooperate nature and the truth that their movies don't have enough heavy mature content.
    It 100% has to do with art. It is what it is.

    In a million years? not really , lol. because it is pretty much true that everyone knows that Black Panther and Killmonger are a watered down version of Singer story telling of Magneto and Xavier from the X-MEN films. Even Michael B Jordan claimed they borrow from that but this difference is that, While Singer did something new by showing a more intellectual narrative of comic books with Xavier and Magneto as rivals were the two don't even fight. MCU made Coogler go for the most generic story telling style with black panther, add that also to the really bad CGI of the movie that a Singer film like X2 with the Nightcrawler scene holds up better. This is what the Oscar are about when they choose to go only for merit.
    Movie making isn't just about CG though.

    BP and the X-men movies don't really have the same themes.

    But it's reception isn't really in question and it's accolades speak for themselves. None of the X-men movies save Logan got similar acclaim. I mean, you "claim" to be a film student, if you are, you would know that BP is actually used in film school.

    It is what it is. I understand that you prefer the X-men movies but the rest of the world doesn't feel like that and you just have to accept it.

    And it is pretty much true that not one MCU movie even has the VFX or even adult drama style of the later Singer movies, MCU had to factually kill off their own quicksilvler because their movies could not compete with DOFP as a film and the first thing MCU has done was even drag Evan Peters to Wandavision, It was Singer movies that made him a star. Again , you can say it is my opinions but I am making them from the actual events that happened.
    How is this relevant?

    MCU films because of their more kid friendly cooperate nature driven by cgi and jokes look very off when they stand next to the singer xmen films because in truth, Singer was allowed to tell any story he wanted and Singer got full control as a director. this is what the oscars will support. MCU films are not allowed to tell any story they want, we know these for fact with Iron Man 3 not allowing the demon in a bottle story line, although it was easy for Singer to show another character using drugs and self mutilating their bodies. it is laughable to even make a case that MCU would have told Days Of Future Past or God Loves Man Kills like Singer was allowed too. Unless I missed the memo that MCU has chosen to move beyond action light hearted comedy usually done to appeal to kids in great importance.
    The whole maturity thing does not mean anything to me, I only care about the quality and ultimately Marvel has made several movies as good and/or better than a lot of X-men movies.

    I'm not a child, I'm a grown man secure in my entertainment choices. I don't need something to be "R-rated" to be "kewl", i've long since past that stage of my life.

    He is but this does not change what he said about SS2. Please we cannot ignore that.
    No one is ignoring it.

    We have to also acknowledge his actions.

    For MCU to handle them better than fox did, it will mean MCU cannot make the films they are making now but the reality is that MCU can only make the films they are making now. so no they objectively cannot handle them better even for a simple logical reason that in 2021 there is no need for X2 or DOFP to be PG 13 because their content allows more than that.
    They can, they've already made better movies than Fox X-men movies.

    It shouldn't be a problem. Don't get me wrong, I seem to be downplaying the X-men movies but some of them were really good but they haven't set a bar so high that the MCU can't clear.

    And lastly , Both Avatar and Titanic and Terminator 1 and 2 are not in the same cinema class of mcu films. I don't think anyone should even go there. lol
    No, there are Marvel movies better than Avatar. Avatar was a technical wonder but it wasn't a great movie.
    Last edited by Username taken; 09-24-2021 at 09:29 AM.

  6. #96
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    Enough with the music analogies.
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  7. #97
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post

    And it is pretty much true that not one MCU movie even has the VFX or even adult drama style of the later Singer movies, MCU had to kill off their own quicksilvler because their movies could not compete with DOFP as a film and the first thing MCU has done was even drag Evan Peters to Wandavision, It was Singer movies that made him a star. Again , you can say it is my opinions but I am making them from the actual events that happened.
    You keep saying that, yet none of the people involved have said that had anything to do with it. It's not your opinion, it's your imagination.
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  8. #98
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    Maybe Marvel Studios has adopted the Motown "assembly line" method of making movies. I don't see that as a BAD thing. Pretty much everybody on this thread agrees it's important for Disney Marvel to have COMMERCIALLY VIABLE products. We wouldn't be discussing the films now if that wasn't the case. Is there room for improvement? Sure. I haven't always been a fan of the CGI in the shows/pictures and I especially think the completely forgettable scores of a lot of the films takes away from my enjoyment of them sometimes. I don't think it's necessary to have huge boss battles at the end of 99% of the final acts. And I think Marvel does a really good job of focusing on heroes (making them household names in ways the comic books never could), but the motivations of a lot of the villains are just so lame to me. Even though I don't like most DCEU movies, they seem to portray women and villains in a much more interesting light (at least to me). But overall, I'm being entertained and having fun watching this stuff. Marvel makes B and B+ movies almost 100% of the time. Maybe they'll miss out on making some A+ things, but if they did that they would almost certainly have a lot MORE Ds and Fs by alienating audiences through making creatively "risky choices". If I want to watch more "serious" things, I'll go to PBS and TCM.
    Last edited by Albert1981; 09-24-2021 at 10:27 AM.

  9. #99
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Interesting comparison.

    I never thought about it like that.
    It's not totally apples vs apples, but I feel they're some similarities.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    I repeat..all movies are manufactured.
    Okay. However I will just lastly point out that if all movies were manufactured there will not be film school or film studies or film documentaries and directors would not matter. if all movies are manufactured. discussion like this about films, cannot be possible.



    Garfield Spiderman is the most liked Spiderman and most accurate by thorough Spiderman research apparently. The idea that the last of Sony effort were all horrible is an MCU spin that only works in the media and in some fandoms, notice I said some. Additionally Sony last effort was Spiderverse.

    For film makers, art is not about money. art is about their talent and their vision and some get lucky that it makes money, both Titanic and Star Wars were a risk Lucas and Cameron took that paid off, Denis Blade Runner if I remember correctly flopped at the box office still one of the best and most celebrated artistic movie of that year but did not pay off at the box office.

    The Oscars usually only nominate big money vfx needed movies when they make an artistic leap in technicality. Lord of the Rings, Titanic, Gravity, Star Wars 1978. The horrendous cgi of black panther compared to all these films. Also no comic film has been nominated for best picture either, so black panther was not about art. if so, many comic films will fairly have been nominated before Black Panther, even Superman 78 that we will say now, is dated in some areas. The superman running faster than a train scene was a ground breaking visual moment in movies than anything from black panther. it was not a Best picture nominee either.

    BP and X-MEN dont have the same themes because Disney cannot address X-MEN themes. No. lol. I dont personally prefer x-men films subjectively. I objectively prefer movies that thought outside the expected comic book box and told superhero stories beyond a kid friendly generic narrative that made us look at the genre more seriously and those are some xmen films. it is just that simple.

    Maturity may do nothing for you but comic films pushing boundaries requires maturity as part of the deal, because the genre started as as a strictly kids things then the sorties began to shift to address more mature stories. this is a marvel comic fact. Marvel even has more mature stories than DC comics before the civil rights and world wars affected stan lee and his writers and they brought those mature themes to comics. this is also why writers like Chris Claremont, Allen More, Frank Miller all got big writing comics.

    Quality movies are not mass-manfactutired any film maker will tell you this. X2 or Spiderman 1 is a higher standard of quality than all the MCU films combined because they done things MCU films have never even done and told some stories MCU will never tell. Black Panther is meant to be the highest quality MCU film but the Spiderman 4 game that sold 15 million copies has better quality graphics than Black Panther and should we even call a comic film with the generic 3rd arc cgi act battle , a quality comic book added with a paper thing plot than does not even have strong character driven arcs? X2 say otherwise. The Dark Knight otherwise, DOFP say otherwise. These movies all showed you can use drama than generic cgi act and that is why their quality is higher if we are too be objective.

    I dont recall any xmen or even spiderman director quitting movies for creative differences or saying MCU told them they will handle everything as they did with the first black widow optioned director or MCU changed everything as they did with the second thor film, if we trust Alan Taylor words and I do. this is a common practice with MCU and that is not the definition of quality movies . it is copy and paste like Dennis is saying and the thing of copy and paste, the more you use that style the more the quality goes down.
    Last edited by Castle; 09-24-2021 at 12:10 PM.

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    You keep saying that, yet none of the people involved have said that had anything to do with it. It's not your opinion, it's your imagination.
    No it is not in my imagination and please stop telling me that,I take little offense to that, This is how action scenes are done in the mcu

    https://www.avclub.com/marvel-offere...cre-1831076365


    Marvel offered to "take care of" action scenes if Lucrecia Martel would direct Black Widow


    This story of marvel telling their directors that she will not be directing her own action scenes is the reality of how their movies are mostly done and this kinds of manufactured film making approach is the reason their quicksilver could not continue because the approach marvel goes against this.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Men:...Visual_effects


    X-Men: Days of Future Past had 1,311 visual effects shots produced by twelve studios. Richard Stammer served as the overall effects supervisor based on his work for Prometheus.[72] The leading company was Moving Picture Company, who created the future Sentinels and worked on the sequences involving the X-Jet and Cerebro's red virtual world.[72] The Sentinels' scaled bodies were created by adapting a tool originally developed to create hair and fur, which would later evolve into creating a proxy representation of each individual scale as a "follicle".[14] Another major contributor was Digital Domain, with effects from the 1973 portion that encompassed nearly a third of the work. These included the Sentinels, Mystique's transformations and eyes, and various digital environments. Digital augmentation turned a remote airstrip into a Vietnam prisoner camp and added Paris' famed mansard rooftops to the Montreal locations. The environment work based on Washington, D.C. required the team to study period references of the National Mall and White House, and photograph almost all of RFK Stadium to create a detailed digital replica.[110] Rising Sun Pictures created a sequence considered by many reviewers the centerpiece of the film's effects, where Quicksilver uses his super speed in the Pentagon kitchen. Depicting how, to a speedster, actions in real time come down to a virtual standstill, objects float around in slow motion. After doing a LIDAR scan of the kitchen set, the digital recreation added many computer generated props—cooking gear, cutlery, vegetables and water released by a fire sprinkler system—rendered in near microscopic detail regarding placement and lighting, particularly because the footage had to work in 3D. To simulate Quicksilver running on the walls, Evan Peters and a stunt double were filmed in both the set being suspended by a harness and on a treadmill that stood in front of a chroma key green screen. Only Peters' legs were digitally replaced.[14][111] Despite the sequence only having 29 effects shots,[72] it required nearly seven months of work from RSP's team of 70 artists.[112]

    Rhythm and Hues Studios worked on Beast's transformations, the creation of Xavier's plane, and speed effects for Quicksilver. They also worked with Digital Domain on the sequence featuring the inside of the 1973 Sentinel. Mokko Studio worked on Mystique's eyes and costume fixes. Cinesite worked on the future New York City in the opening prologue along with clean-ups, wire removals, and production fixes. Fuel VFX worked on holographic effects and Havok's mutant powers. Vision Globale worked on visual effects relating to a dream and flashback sequence. Hydraulx, Lola and Method Studios handled a number of compositions and production fixes. The Third Floor worked on extensive story-boarding and visualisation.[72]
    MCU is outclassed here next to DOFP if we want to talk craft. Now we can use a Dennis film like blade runner 2049 with example like this.



    MCU movies become very outclassed again, because with Bryan Singer or Dennis, no studio is telling them how they will do their own stuff, and for that reason their quality gets higher because it is more unique to their personal vision versus MCU that all look the same in vfx because their establishment takes cares of it
    Last edited by Castle; 09-24-2021 at 04:37 PM.

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    Okay. However I will just lastly point out that if all movies were manufactured there will not be film school or film studies or film documentaries and directors would not matter. if all movies are manufactured. discussion like this about films, cannot be possible.
    Nothing here contradicts what I have said.

    My original point is quite clear. Understand what I wrote.

    Garfield Spiderman is the most liked Spiderman and most accurate by thorough Spiderman research apparently. The idea that the last of Sony effort were all horrible is an MCU spin that only works in the media and in some fandoms, notice I said some. Additionally Sony last effort was Spiderverse.
    Garfield Spiderman being the most liked Spider-man is not based on anything and is absolutely false.

    Tom Holland is much, much more appropriate for teenage high school Spider-man. So far, he's been only the comic book accurate casting because both Garfield and Maguire were grown men playing teenagers. Spider-man started off at age 15.

    Sony themselves scapped that series. I'm not sure why you are even arguing this, the Amazing Spider-man series didn't achieve what Sony wanted at all and they gave up on it.

    And I said LIVE ACTION action movies. Re-read what I wrote.

    For film makers, art is not about money. art is about their talent and their vision and some get lucky that it makes money, both Titanic and Star Wars were a risk Lucas and Cameron took that paid off, Denis Blade Runner if I remember correctly flopped at the box office still one of the best and most celebrated artistic movie of that year but did not pay off at the box office.
    And?

    You really think Villeneuve is not making big budget blockbusters to not make money? That's silly.

    You also really think James Cameron made Titanic to not make money?

    The Oscars usually only nominate big money vfx needed movies when they make an artistic leap in technicality. Lord of the Rings, Titanic, Gravity, Star Wars 1978. The horrendous cgi of black panther compared to all these films. Also no comic film has been nominated for best picture either, so black panther was not about art. if so, many comic films will fairly have been nominated before Black Panther, even Superman 78 that we will say now, is dated in some areas. The superman running faster than a train scene was a ground breaking visual moment in movies than anything from black panther. it was not a Best picture nominee either.
    CGI isn't a criteria to be nominated for best picture. It never has and will likely never will be.

    It is what it is.

    BP and X-MEN dont have the same themes because Disney cannot address X-MEN themes. No. lol. I dont personally prefer x-men films subjectively. I objectively prefer movies that thought outside the expected comic book box and told superhero stories beyond a kid friendly generic narrative that made us look at the genre more seriously and those are some xmen films. it is just that simple.
    Too bad BP got the recognition and the X-men movies didn't. BP got accolades that none of the X-men movies got even outside of the Oscars.

    Some of the X-men movies were good (some were great like X2 and First Class) and they were the stepping stone for the MCU.

    The X-men movies and BP don't have the same themes. That being said, I have no doubt the MCU will handle the X-men and its themes well, if they could put out BP and BW i have no doubt they will do right by the X-men and not fart out duds like X-men Apocalypse, Dark Phoenix, X-men 3, X-men Origins Wolverine and New Mutants. Marvel will actually treat these right and not white wash actual minorities in the comics.

    If anyone is going to point to minority led superhero movies they'll mention BP before any X-men movie.

    Maturity may do nothing for you but comic films pushing boundaries requires maturity as part of the deal, because the genre started as as a strictly kids things then the sorties began to shift to address more mature stories. this is a marvel comic fact. Marvel even has more mature stories than DC comics before the civil rights and world wars affected stan lee and his writers and they brought those mature themes to comics. this is also why writers like Chris Claremont, Allen More, Frank Miller all got big writing comics.
    Too bad the X-men movies didn't push anything.

    Quality movies are not mass-manfactutired any film maker will tell you this. X2 or Spiderman 1 is a higher standard of quality than all the MCU films combined because they done things MCU films have never even done and told some stories MCU will never tell. Black Panther is meant to be the highest quality MCU film but the Spiderman 4 game that sold 15 million copies has better quality graphics than Black Panther and should we even call a comic film with the generic 3rd arc cgi act battle , a quality comic book added with a paper thing plot than does not even have strong character driven arcs? X2 say otherwise. The Dark Knight otherwise, DOFP say otherwise. These movies all showed you can use drama than generic cgi act and that is why their quality is higher if we are too be objective.
    Thank goodness that CGI isn't the only thing that makes a movie good.

    I'm also not taking your opinion on what constitutes good CGI, you literally didn't even know the scenes in BP and TDK that used or didn't use CGI.

    I dont recall any xmen or even spiderman director quitting movies for creative differences or saying MCU told them they will handle everything as they did with the first black widow optioned director or MCU changed everything as they did with the second thor film, if we trust Alan Taylor words and I do. this is a common practice with MCU and that is not the definition of quality movies . it is copy and paste like Dennis is saying and the thing of copy and paste, the more you use that style the more the quality goes down.
    The Fox X-men movies were plagued by studio interference. That's why X-men 3 and X-men Origins: Wolverine were absolute crap. Bryan Singer was pretty much kicked off Dark Phoenix and Simon Kinberg had to direct that one (because Singer is just piece of crap in real life).

    Sony kicked off Sam Raimi off the Spider-man series to reboot the franchise and that's after the studio messed up Spider-man 3. And when that reboot failed, they rebooted again with Marvel's assistance.

    You talk so much about these movies while completely unaware of the background drama surrounding these movies.

    EDIT: I also forgot to mention that Mathew Vaughn actually fell out with Fox too, that's why he didn't direct Days of Future Past.
    Last edited by Username taken; 09-24-2021 at 12:58 PM.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Nothing here contradicts what I have said.

    My original point is quite clear. Understand what I wrote.
    .
    Sure. moreover the difference is there is no evidence to support your point that all movies are manufactured because that is not the case. However there is evidence to support my point that not all movies are manufactured, and I will continue to prove this even going back to the golden age of movies. here is another of billy wilder making a movie, that was the opposite of manufactured that it scared everyone in Hollywood and made hollywood think deeply about what is wrong with their business.



    Actually Garfield is more liked and is held more beloved than Holland, to support my point with another evidence , its on spiderman cbr forum. they talk about all the time, those are spiderman readers that even still read his books regularly.

    LOL. Actually xmen movies got the recognition that carried more substance than short form media hype. We can look at those movies in 20 years as critics and fans did and even commend the movie better than 20 years ago because comic films now are just lesser than what they are 20 years earlier LOL I don't want Black Panther recognition. I like recognition only done for craft merited reason.
    I would not want the BAFTAS in 2019 when Black Panther beat first man for VFX and everyone in the audience looked uncomfortable because the Baftas felt they just need to give BP an award because of political reasons. that is not what awards should be for.

    To be consistent. MCU has more generic poorly inspired movies than all the other comic franchise combined because you see in the world of film making a director that made a bad film is still better than a cooperate mediocre bad movie like iron man 3, thor 2, captain marvel, ant man 1, gotg 2, age of ulton, thor 2 , spiderman homecoming and many others they have made that has made all these directors go against them.

    it is not just CGI it is also story telling. The screen play of DOFP will never pass as a MCU screenplay. disney will find it good but too heavy and not watered down enough for their film style and I dont even need to start with Logan, that got a very well deserved Oscar nom screenplay for writing, a recognition that many comic fans and evvery critics praised, unlike black panther where the nomination left everyone sort of in cringe mode that even John Campea, a marvel shill had to make a video telling people that although black panther's nomination was not earned, people should see a brighter side to see it. lol. awards are not for this, this is why Oscars has lost ratings really. .

    To be more accurate. neither X-MEN 3 or Origins had studio interference. that is just not true. Origins was just not well done by the director and x-men 3 was given a go because they did not want to wait for singer. It is funny with x-men 3, still a better learned story about discrimination and racism with better cgi than black panther and x-men 3 even had got critical performance acclaim for Kesley Grammer as Beast. X-Men 3 is a film that has more going for it than Black Panther when we break it down as I have done with themes, acting performances and the VFX. this is how low the bar for MCU is.

    For Spiderman 3 (2007), as mixed as that film was, that film had story lines that MCU will never ever get too since their goal according to the Russos is that Spiderman is Peter Pan, a boy who never grows up, Raimi already had spiderman 3 tackling themes of marriage and parental responsibility, I cannot see how that is looked at as a bad thing now when you think mcu spiderman gets more into the child mode angle and more reliant of older characters like Iron man and Dr strange. that is not Spiderman, reason Holland is always going to be the least liked of the 3 actors. his movies are not capturing the source material. and should I add the copy and paste style from the trailer.

    Citizen Kane opened the doors for movies to use different kinds of cinematography as seen with earlier comic films like X-MEN, Blade, Spiderman 2, Batman Begins...So why is MCU still using the dour bland hallmark style for No way home? We don't say Dune looks better than Eternals just from their trailers for any reason. there is evidence to why that is. Dennis Villeneuve is an expert in using cinematography as shown in Blade Runner 2049. For Marvel, they still have a long way to go compared to 2049.
    Last edited by Castle; 09-24-2021 at 04:52 PM.

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    Sure. the difference is there is no evidence to support your point that all movies are manufactured because that is not the case. However there is evidence to support my point that not all movies are manufactured, and I will continue to prove this even going back to the golden age of movies. here is another fine proof of billy wilder making a movie, that was the opposite of manufactured that it scared everyone in Hollywood and made hollywood think about what is wrong with their business.
    You're not proving anything.

    Again, understand my original point- all movies are manufactured however some are more commercial than others.

    It's not really something to argue continuously.

    Actually Garfield is more liked and is held more beloved than Holland, to support my point with another evidence , its on spiderman cbr forum. they talk about all the time, those are spiderman readers that even still read his books regularly.
    Whatever happens on the CBR Spider-man forum isn't proof of anything.

    So basically, you don't have anything to back up that absolutely ridiculous claim.

    LOL. Actually xmen movies got the recognition that carried more substance than media hype. We can look at those movies in 20 years as critics and fans did and even commend the movie better than 20 years ago because comic films now are just lesser than what they are 20 years earlier LOL I don't want Black Panther recognition. I like recognition only done for artistic merited reason.
    I would not want this like the BAFTAS in 2019 when Black Panther beat first man for VFX and everyone in the audience looked uncomfortable because the Baftas felt they just need to give BP an award because of political reasons. that is not what credible awards are for.
    Nope, the X-men movies didn't get ANYTHING more than BP. They didn't get more acclaim than TDK trilogy or the first Spider-man movies or even the GoTG series.

    Like I said before, it is what it is.

    To be consistent. MCU has far more generic poorly inspired movies than all the other comic franchise combined because you see in the world of film making a director that made a bad film is still better than a cooperate mediocre bad movie like iron man 3, thor 2, captain marvel, ant man 1, gotg 2, age of ulton, thor 2 , spiderman homecoming and many others they have made that has made all these directors go against them.
    That's your opinion and you keep repeating them.

    It doesn't mean anything.

    it is not just CGI it is also story telling. The screen play of DOFP will never pass of as a MCU screenplay. disney will find it good but too heavy and not watered down enough for their film style, that is what makes it a good screenplay because it will have forced disney to try and think outside their light hearted formula derivate story line with little character driven arcs and I dont even need to start with Logan, that got a very well deserved Oscar nom screenplay for writing, a recognition that many comic fans and evvery critics praised, unlike black panther where the nomination left everyone sort of in cringe mode that even John Campea, a marvel shill had to make a video telling people the nomination was not earned but people should see a brighter side to see it. lol.
    Nothing changes the fact that BP got the accolades it got. You're arguing against facts that have already happened.

    I'm not really here to discuss your bias or discontent about the MCU's success.

    Feel free to continue but you can't retroactively change what's already happened. Folks are looking forward to BP2 and what's going to happen (although I'm not because Chadwick Boseman won't be in it).

    To be more accurate. neither X-MEN 3 or Origins had studio interference. that is just not true. Origins was just not well done by the director and x-men 3 was given a go because they did not want to wait for singer. It is funny with x-men 3, still a better learned story about discrimination and racism with better cgi than black panther and x-men 3 even had got critical performance acclaim for Kesley Grammer as Beast. X-Men 3 is a film that has more going for it than Black Panther when we break it down as I have done with themes, acting performances and the VFX. this is how low the bar for MCU Black Panther that you keep bringing up but I notice, not much is said about what is the movie and that shows little substance the film has.
    Why do you keep getting stuff wrong??!

    Gavin Hood and Tom Rothman (Fox studio head at the time) had a TON of issues on the making of X-men Origins: Wolverine. So much so that Lauren Shuler Donner flew in to quell the tensions. Gavin Hood wanted a heavier film but the studio didn't want to deal with this (particularly with Logan dealing with PTSD). That's why the movie came out a jumbled mess, the movie started shooting with an incomplete screenplay. Fox also directly interfered with X-men 3, they insisted that Xavier die and wanted to expunge "The Dark Phoenix" plot from the movie, that resulted in Jean Grey's role in the movie being downplayed significantly.

    Fox really mucked up the X-men series HARD. Seriously, it was amateur hour compared to what Marvel did subsequently. That's why the MCU has been as successful as it is, Marvel are/were just better at making superhero movies than Fox.

    As for the rest of your post, that's just an emotional outburst that I'm not going reply. This stuff isn't so deep, BP beating all the X-men movies commercially and critically shouldn't really bother you, it's just the way it is.

    Note, I'm not saying that BP is actually "better" than all the X-men movies just that it beat them in every measurable metric. Like I said, it might bother you but it is what it is.

    For Spiderman 3 (2007), as mixed as that film was, that film had story lines that MCU will never ever get too since their goal according to the Russos is that Spiderman is Peter Pan, a boy who never grows up, Raimi already had spiderman 3 tackling themes of marriage and parental responsibility, I cannot see how that is looked at as a bad thing now when you think mcu spiderman gets more into the child mode angle and more reliant of older characters like Iron man and Dr strange. that is not Spiderman, reason Holland is always going to be the least liked of the 3 actors. his movies are not capturing the source material. and should I add the copy and paste style from the trailer.
    My friend, this isn't something complicated because you really, really seem to be struggling to understand this.

    Spider-man STARTED OFF AS A TEENAGER and Marvel simply went back to this.

    All the Spider-man movies had him start off in High School the difference is this is the first time an actual teenager is playing the role.

    I also don't like how "immersed" Peter Parker is in the MCU but that's as a result of Garfield's Spider-man's failure. Again, it is what it is.

    Citizen Kane open the doors for movies to use different kinds of cinematography as seen with earlier comic films like X-MEN, Blade, Spiderman 2, First Class...So why is MCU still using the dour bland hallmark style for No way home? We don't say Dune looks better than Eternals just from their trailers for any reason. there is evidence to why that is. Dennis Villeneuve is an expert in using cinematography as shown in Blade Runner 2049. For Marvel, they still have a long way to go compared to that. they are not even close yet to other comic films of Batman Begins/X2 or Road to Perdition.
    The X-men movies didn't have excellent cinematography. Not at all.

    The only X-men movie that had great cinematography IMHO is Logan.

    The MCU's cinematography is fine. Thor Ragnarok and GoTG had better cinematograhpy than every single X-men film except Logan.

    But I'm not continuing this discussion though. It's circular and we've gone over the same points over and over again.

    It's pretty much a waste of everyone's time. You don't need to let the fact that the MCU has reached heights the X-men movies never did be a problem. Just hope that Marvel will do the X-men justice on film. From what I've seen so far, I believe they will.
    Last edited by Username taken; 09-24-2021 at 05:06 PM.

  15. #105
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    [QUOTE=Username taken;5745445]

    I am proving a lot, you are free to ingore it but I doubt many here would. According to directors like Bryan Singer, Nolan, Scorsese , James Cameron and Mangold to name a few or less I forget Ridley Scott. they have said on their best days which is more than not. they dont make manufactured movies and I am sorry, I have to trust and side with them more than I do another person who is trying to make a history of cinema fit the MCU formula. CBR forum discussion about Spiderman is proof. we cannot personally dismiss it, but their comments make sense, aftercall they are the people reading spiderman comics. to dimiss is ,is to hurt holland movies.

    From a film genre place, they all got the roughly same kind of acclaim in how to make comic films move beyond just kid friendly stories, a fact common after batman and robin and pre disney mcu movies. X-MEN was most famous in comic book critical reception because Singer and others used it more as a platform to tackle social issues and invoke many heavy political angles that has never been done in comics before. this is just the truth. the Bobby comes out scene in X2 is the best example to this and the most famous social conscious scene in comic book films and the Xavier and Magneto rivalry-friendship is now one of the most iconic rivalries in all of modern cinema. Now I know this is a hard one because it puts MCU X-MEN in a difficult place and makes MCU look very limited but alternate history does not change this. this is Nolan n the first xmen film , which is what? the 4th best of the series?

    http://www.unleashthefanboy.com/movi...lan-x-me/70919

    There wasn’t really a superhero genre before X-Men came out. Funny enough, I remember catching a plane while we were promoting The Prestige with Chris Nolan [who] said to me that he’d always had the Batman in his mind. Even way back before 2000, he had the version of Batman that he ended up making in his head. He said, ‘when I went into the cinema and saw X-Men, I said damn, that’s my idea.’ The idea that you could really dive in to the emotional life, to the vulnerability of these characters and that, as well as being fantastical, amazing and action, is what’s going to hook people and make them care. That’s what Bryan did, he had a lot of courage to do that.”

    From the same person that once said, MCU movies are not real in 2012 when Nolan tried to put a distance between Avengers and The Dark Knight Rises. what Nolan said is the overall critical reception of the good xmen films. last I checked, GOTG is still fun and jokes and even now GOTG is blamed the most for MCU unnecessarily becoming more action comedies and for Black Panther, let's imagine the movie not made by Disney, but made by Sony or Fox and go color blind. What I see is a movie getting slammed hard for its simplistic story and bad special effects.

    Spiderman is still not Peter Pan as MCU thinks though, Spiderman started of as teenager but why the Raimi movies are great is that like the comics, Spiderman was growing day by day. MCU Spiderman now has about 6 movies and he is still a teenager, from the trailers, Tom Holland no longer looks like a teenager in real life so why is he still in high school in movies? Garfield movies failed because his movies were held to much higher standard and critics were more honest. The bar tends to be low for MCU. All what MCU movies needs is lots of quips and action scenes. that is not good enough for sony

    LOL. Now I feel this is just getting too much into a really bad marvel vs fox stuff, sorry I don't do that angle. that is why you dont see me saying many good things about xmen origins or even Singer's more comic bookie xmen apocalypse. what I do is show why director centred film making that pushes more story boundaries has better benefits than cooperate film making with a disney dumbed down spin of the genre.

    LOL with X-Men movies dont have good cinematography. first of all the nazi opening scene in xmen 1 will differ to that because the color grading and camera shots of that movie gave a realistic take of what nazi camps in 1941 that made people see the comic books in a serious manner even Nolan himself and the cinematography is what we should thank for that iconic opening scene in comic book history that has held up after 21 years.

    GOTG, Ragnarok are not close to that, those movies have the same dour bland look signature mcu look that gets very complained about in their films and sometimes they are way way too colourful to take them seriously. In film making, Cinematography has a lot to do with thought and vision, reason why I mentioned Citizen Kane. MCU as Scorsese did point out their movies look like theme parks , likely done to appeal very much to the kids quadrant and it shows in their cinematography, everything looks like an animation with many blur backgrounds as seen in films like Endgame and Avengers. in honesty mcu got so bad with this that The Dark Knight Rises director had to call it out as far back in 2012.

    https://www.escapistmagazine.com/dar...-the-avengers/

    Dark Knight Rises Cinematographer Bashes The Avengers


    And MCU has not gotten better, Shang CHI cinematography was not great at all and Black Widow looked worse. Singer has said he wanted comic films to look more realistic and more self aware that the story is taking place in a real-real world and that shows in this xmen movies cinematography, no one has ever seen a singer xmen film look like theme parks or were cartoonish, Singer's xmen moves are very famous for their far more grounded realism and a good cinematography is the key to that as proven again with scenes like magneto in nazi camps.

    This is not a mcu vs fox vs sony vs dc rant I am saying here. this is a honest good film making obvious take of movies I will say in front of anyone including Scorsese or Coppela or Dennis Villeneuve and I am sure, they will see my reason because they have already said the same thing about how to make movies and they are right, reason I say the same because I see why it makes sense.
    Last edited by Castle; 09-24-2021 at 06:11 PM.

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