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  1. #76
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    I think Shakira is a lot more "artsy" than folks are giving her credit for.

    She started off as a singer-songwriter (I believe she started writing music as early as 8 or something). She's something of a "genius musician".

    She wasn't always the hip-swinging pop star she evolved into. But yeah, I agree she's more Marvel than Scorcese.

  2. #77
    Mighty Member C_Miller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramsay Snow View Post
    About as facetious as Scorsese saying the MCU is formulaic, when his own trilogy is formulaic, as well.....And it's not like the MCU is something completely new to cinema. Film franchises have been around for a while. Where were Scorsese's scathing comments about the Bond films, since that franchise has been running since the 60s? Unless he thinks each Bond film in the franchise is great cinema and that they're entirely unique from one another.

    I honestly don't care about Scorsese's opinion on the MCU, it's likely bitterness over his own films not getting the treatment they used to receive, along with a likely negative view on comic books in general.....He's a great filmmaker, and not that this has any relevance toward what I've said in this thread, but most of his films haven't appealed to me. The only Scorsese film I own on home media is The Departed. I also own the full Boardwalk Empire series on blu-ray.....Despite great performances by De Niro, I don't like Taxi Driver, Raging Bull, nor Cape Fear. I thought The Wolf of Wall Street was entertaining, but didn't like it. The Aviator, Shutter Island, and Gangs of New York were all well-made films, as was Scorsese's Mafia Trilogy, but, again, I'm not into them.

    Hell, Villeneuve has a much shorter list of films in his resume than Scorsese, and I like more of his films already. I'm hoping Dune turns out to be a good movie and becomes a successful franchise. I also hope such success could lead Villeneuve to doing another Blade Runner film.....And I wouldn't care if Villeneuve completely shit on the MCU in interviews in the process (Which he hasn't).
    It seems like you're overstating Scorsese's comments. You clearly seem more fixated on it than he does. Not that there's anything wrong with that. But either way, Scorsese made a comment when he was asked about Marvel in 2019 and then he was forced to clarify, which he did in an essay in the New York Times. He then wrote an essay about Federico Fellini in Harper's Magazine and a lot of Internet Crusaders who feel that the he was taking more swipes at the MCU.

    The way some people talk about Scorsese, you'd think he was sitting alone in a study somewhere figuring out new ways to undermine the most successful film franchise of all time.

  3. #78
    Extraordinary Member babyblob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by C_Miller View Post
    It seems like you're overstating Scorsese's comments. You clearly seem more fixated on it than he does. Not that there's anything wrong with that. But either way, Scorsese made a comment when he was asked about Marvel in 2019 and then he was forced to clarify, which he did in an essay in the New York Times. He then wrote an essay about Federico Fellini in Harper's Magazine and a lot of Internet Crusaders who feel that the he was taking more swipes at the MCU.

    The way some people talk about Scorsese, you'd think he was sitting alone in a study somewhere figuring out new ways to undermine the most successful film franchise of all time.
    He could very well be doing this. After the family goes to be he feeds his dogs then puts on his I hate Spiderman tee shirt and just writes plan after plan on how to bring down Marvel and Disney.

    He could also after the family goes to bed put on his Avengers PJ's and watch Endgame all night.

    He could also be having a good laugh at people like us who ponder his real thoughts on the MCU and his hidden messages in the essay he wrote.

    But and I am 100 percent sure this is what he is really doing. Not giving a rats ass about this topic any more
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  4. #79
    of House Bolton Ramsay Snow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by C_Miller View Post
    It seems like you're overstating Scorsese's comments. You clearly seem more fixated on it than he does. Not that there's anything wrong with that. But either way, Scorsese made a comment when he was asked about Marvel in 2019 and then he was forced to clarify, which he did in an essay in the New York Times. He then wrote an essay about Federico Fellini in Harper's Magazine and a lot of Internet Crusaders who feel that the he was taking more swipes at the MCU.
    Not at all. I care so little about his opinion on the MCU that I never bothered reading the original interview, nor did I read his follow-up essay, lol.

    But, hey, if you're trying to say that I'm completely wrong, and that Scorsese actually loves comic books and has a glowing opinion of the MCU, then more power to you.

  5. #80
    Mighty Member C_Miller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramsay Snow View Post
    Not at all. I care so little about his opinion on the MCU that I never bothered reading the original interview, nor did I read his follow-up essay, lol.

    But, hey, if you're trying to say that I'm completely wrong, and that Scorsese actually loves comic books and has a glowing opinion of the MCU, then more power to you.
    My point is that he doesn't care.

  6. #81
    Extraordinary Member babyblob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramsay Snow View Post
    It means he cares far more about the subject than you let on!
    I think we care more about his thoughts on the MCU then he cares about his thoughts on the MCU.
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  7. #82
    Mighty Member C_Miller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babyblob View Post
    I think we care more about his thoughts on the MCU then he cares about his thoughts on the MCU.
    Exactly. Answering a question in an interview means nothing. It's not like anyone could possibly believe that the only time people answer questions in interviews is because they care deeply about the subject.

  8. #83
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    Honestly its like asking Frank Sinatra what he thought about the Rolling Stones. Its not relevant what he thinks. Because the Stones or the Beatles or whomever became more popular than him. It just happens. He can have his opinions sure, we all do. But it doesnt change what the public wants to see.

  9. #84
    Mighty Member C_Miller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by inisideguy View Post
    Honestly its like asking Frank Sinatra what he thought about the Rolling Stones. Its not relevant what he thinks. Because the Stones or the Beatles or whomever became more popular than him. It just happens. He can have his opinions sure, we all do. But it doesnt change what the public wants to see.
    You're acting like Frank Sinatra didn't get those questions or he didn't give his off the cuff opinion on things. But eitherway, I don't think anyone is saying otherwise. At the end of the day, Scorsese is an old man lamenting that things aren't the way now as they were when he was a kid. Scorsese grew up in a time when a working class kid from Queens could have the entire world at their finger tips in the movie houses. He could see a John Ford Western and then a Howard Hawks Noir in the same evening and go again next week and see a Fellini neorealist film or a Kurosawa samurai movie. Yes people have access to all this now, but his bigger point (which most don't talk about here) is his concern that with uncurated streaming platforms like Netflix, you end up losing a lot of that stuff as films stop being art and start being content.

    His general tone is a not one of anger, but feeling of nostalgia that many of us should have sympathy for. As a whole we are fans of characters we read as youths and the general tenor of the fan base is that change is generally a bad thing. Look at any page on this forum and while many won't admit it (though a fair amount do), but there are countless discussions that boil down to people wanting comic characters to be like they were when they were kids.

    Finally, look, I know a lot of us have trauma about liking comic books and superheroes. I still feel uncomfortable talking about my fandom with people I don't know. But here's the important thing, we've won. Comic Book characters are no longer a sub-culture; they are the culture. Like you said, it really doesn't matter what he thinks. My students don't care what an 80 year old Italian America director thinks about Marvel. They're all going to see Shang-Chi and Eternals and Spider-Man and Dr. Strange 2 and Black Panther 2 and when they're waiting, they'll flip on the Disney+ and watch What If? and Loki while Scorsese laments their lack of choice.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by C_Miller View Post
    You're acting like Frank Sinatra didn't get those questions or he didn't give his off the cuff opinion on things. But eitherway, I don't think anyone is saying otherwise. At the end of the day, Scorsese is an old man lamenting that things aren't the way now as they were when he was a kid. Scorsese grew up in a time when a working class kid from Queens could have the entire world at their finger tips in the movie houses. He could see a John Ford Western and then a Howard Hawks Noir in the same evening and go again next week and see a Fellini neorealist film or a Kurosawa samurai movie. Yes people have access to all this now, but his bigger point (which most don't talk about here) is his concern that with uncurated streaming platforms like Netflix, you end up losing a lot of that stuff as films stop being art and start being content.

    His general tone is a not one of anger, but feeling of nostalgia that many of us should have sympathy for. As a whole we are fans of characters we read as youths and the general tenor of the fan base is that change is generally a bad thing. Look at any page on this forum and while many won't admit it (though a fair amount do), but there are countless discussions that boil down to people wanting comic characters to be like they were when they were kids.

    Finally, look, I know a lot of us have trauma about liking comic books and superheroes. I still feel uncomfortable talking about my fandom with people I don't know. But here's the important thing, we've won. Comic Book characters are no longer a sub-culture; they are the culture. Like you said, it really doesn't matter what he thinks. My students don't care what an 80 year old Italian America director thinks about Marvel. They're all going to see Shang-Chi and Eternals and Spider-Man and Dr. Strange 2 and Black Panther 2 and when they're waiting, they'll flip on the Disney+ and watch What If? and Loki while Scorsese laments their lack of choice.
    For me I can enjoy a Scorsese movie or a Marvel movie. Just like I could like Sinatra or the Stones. I personally get that some directors may be upset that they can't release movies like they did in the old days and get decent box office for serious films. At least most of them. On the other hand I think these streaming services are a creative outlet. Are these going to make the directors as much money as they use to get? Well I don't know. I have no idea how those streaming contracts are set up. However there is more stuff being made good, bad, or otherwise than ever. I do think people wear rose colored glasses when talking about the good old days of movies. I mean there was some great dramatic stuff being made for cinema back then no doubt. But there was also a ton of garbage as well. Garbage that made money. I don't know times change. The movie industry wasn't the same in 1975 or whatever as it was in 1947. I am sure a lot of those directors from the 40s thought the 70s were not good. Its just a generational thing.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    I think Shakira is a lot more "artsy" than folks are giving her credit for.

    She started off as a singer-songwriter (I believe she started writing music as early as 8 or something). She's something of a "genius musician".

    She wasn't always the hip-swinging pop star she evolved into. But yeah, I agree she's more Marvel than Scorcese.
    eh, as someone here who defended Shakira as an artist, Shakira is not more like marvel. Shakira is very musically trained in singing, dancing and song writing and she gets creative ownership of her source material. Marvel directors and writers cannot even decide their own cinematography, VFX, sound mixing or worse their story telling, To say Shakira is more like marvel I feel would be a tard disrespectful to shakira as an artist because Shakira is not a manufactured artist. MCU movies are all manufactured.

    Marvel is more like an early Miley Cyrus in the role of Hannah Montana....in fact why did I not think about this before. Miley also started off at Disney and Disney took creative control of her music and even her image, they same way Disney has taken control of marvel , Even Miley said , she began to loose herself and her identity because she was so manufactured by the Disney machine and all she wanted to do was escape all of that and she sure did, Look no further than her VMA performance with Rob Thicke.

    This is why Miley Cyrus rebelled later like many other Disney child stars from Britney Spears to Christina Aguilera, they were all quick to dump their Disney child friendly manufactured image for more ''adult sex appeal provocative music and take control of their artistry'' Marvel's main weakness is that they have no control of their film artistry. Shakira is the boss of her own artistry. In fact Jennifer Lopez has a better chance of being called more like marvel even if that will still be far-fetched.

    the rebellion of all these directors from Scorsese to Denis against marvel is because marvel movies are too manufactured, and their directors don't really do much or decide how their films should be is very mirrored to how many child stars all rebel against been seen as nothing more than a Disney cooperate product and look no further than the singer-actress that made Hannah Montana an Icon.

    Marvel is light years a far bigger commodity product to Disney than Hannah Montana ever was and that means more cooperate formula direction is used. Sigh...Shakira should be left out of this debate. lol
    Last edited by Castle; 09-24-2021 at 03:25 AM.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    eh, as someone here who defended Shakira as an artist, Shakira is not more like marvel. Shakira is very musically trained in singing, dancing and song writing and she gets creative ownership of her source material. Marvel directors and writers cannot even decide their own cinematography, VFX, sound mixing or worse their story telling, To say Shakira is more like marvel I feel would be a tard disrespectful to shakira as an artist because Shakira is not a manufactured artist. MCU movies are all manufactured.

    Marvel is more like an early Miley Cyrus in the role of Hannah Montana....in fact why did I not think about this before. Miley also started off at Disney and Disney took creative control of her music and even her image, they same way Disney has taken control of marvel , Even Miley said , she began to loose herself and her identity because she was so manufactured by the Disney machine and all she wanted to do was escape all of that and she sure did, Look no further than her VMA performance with Rob Thicke.

    This is why Miley Cyrus rebelled later like many other Disney child stars from Britney Spears to Christina Aguilera, they were all quick to dump their Disney child friendly manufactured image for more ''adult sex appeal provocative music and take control of their artistry'' Marvel's main weakness is that they have no control of their film artistry. Shakira is the boss of her own artistry. In fact Jennifer Lopez has a better chance of being called more like marvel even if that will still be far-fetched.

    the rebellion of all these directors from Scorsese to Denis against marvel is because marvel movies are too manufactured, and their directors don't really do much or decide how their films should be is very mirrored to how many child stars all rebel against been seen as nothing more than a Disney cooperate product and look no further than the singer-actress that made Hannah Montana an Icon.

    Marvel is light years a far bigger commodity product to Disney than Hannah Montana ever was and that means more cooperate formula direction is used. Sigh...Shakira should be left out of this debate. lol
    All movies are manufactured. Some (like Marvel) are just better done than others. Same with musicians except the indie artists which Shakira is not.

    Marvel is corporate no doubt but they’ve been far more successful than say Fox and Sony were at churning out superhero movies. That’s not to say that Marvel is perfect but they’ve managed to do something very rare by getting critical and commercial success where a lot of superhero franchises just sputter along like the X-men series that only produced a handful of good movies. Same with Sony that mucked up the Spider-man series and in reality made only 2 great live action Spider-man movies (although I will say that I like first two Raimi’s Spider-man movies best).

    Basically, what Marvel has done isn’t something most of us have seen before. That’s why the debate around the MCU gets complicated at times. It’s not like say the Transformers or Pirates of the Caribbean series that grew increasingly bloated and eventually lost both critics and audiences, the MCU has continuously moved from success to success to having a best picture nominee to Endgame smashing box office records. Very,very few franchises have dominated the pop culture landscape and still garnered acclaim from critics and audiences alike.

    To be clear, every studio movie follows certain guidelines laid down by the studio. Some of these guidelines might be tighter than some others but there guidelines. No studio will hand over hundreds of millions of dollars to a film maker without a measure of control. I agree that sometimes the MCU guidelines can sometime hamstring movies but said film makers know what they are getting into when they make and the movies and some like Coogler, Waititi and even the Russos have pretty much excelled with what they were given.

    Scorsese and Villeneuve have their opinions and they are entitled to them. But it doesn’t even sound like they’ve watched the movies (as Scorcese in particular is from an entirely different generation so I can kind of understand his POV) so they don’t really mean much to me.

    All this doesn’t really change what Marvel has accomplished. The movies aren’t perfect by any stretch but their accomplishments are what they are. It sounds like I’m hyping the MCU because yes I am. I like to celebrate success where I see it, that’s why when I see fellow film makers make comments like some film makers do it boggles my mind. It’s no wonder Blomkamp called Villeneuve a “f…ing asshole”.
    Last edited by Username taken; 09-24-2021 at 05:40 AM.

  13. #88
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    The phrase "strained analogy" somehow comes to mind.

    "You see, Marvel is like frozen yogurt, it's not really ice cream but people can eat more of it."

    "No, Marvel is like a modern glass tower compared to a classic gothic cathedral."
    Last edited by Kirby101; 09-24-2021 at 06:44 AM.
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  14. #89
    Astonishing Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    The phrase "strained analogy" somehow comes to mind.

    "You see, Marvel is like frozen yogurt, it's not really ice cream but people can eat more of it."

    "No, Marvel is like modern glass tower compared to a classic gothic cathedral."
    Yeah, this got silly real fast.
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  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    All movies are manufactured. Some (like Marvel) are just better done than others. Same with musicians except the indie artists which Shakira is not.
    .
    If all movies were manufactured, it would mean every director has no distinction from the other and that we is a lie. we know a Tarantino movie or a Nolan movie or Spielberg movie when we see one. To say all movies are manufactured is to make Scorsese right that marvel movies are not offering much to people about discovering artistic cinema, this is what he was worried about. You may be proving him right since Scorsese does not and has never made a manufactured movie.

    This is not a thread about success though, although one thing this generation is very famous for compared to the 90s is that people can be successful with zero talent. the Kardashians, Autotuned pop Singers and Instagram Models. marvel is successful yes, because they are part of a big Disney brand that has worked but let's compare their movies to James Cameron billion dollar movies and see how marvel movies hold up artistically.

    It also does not matter that marvel is more successful than Fox or Sony, the Fox and good Sony movies are far less stigmatised than marvel movies are and their critical reception holds up better because a good sony or fox movie showed that comic films don't have to play into the narrative that MCU has now. please just look at this thread

    https://community.cbr.com/showthread...n-Rights/page2

    If it was left to Spiderman fans, they will want him to leave the MCU and I am pretty sure Spiderman fans know that his last movie made a billion dollars. lol. So for fans success is not enough. Many fans that grew up in the post batman and robin era valued authentic film making over financial success.

    While I agree that marvel was the first to pull off an MCU, this is just enough even in the genre, Recently the No Way Home trailer has not been really well received. Do we really need to see Dr Orc back? Nostalgia, gimmick, hype, reusing of the mcu its all connected formula? we can call it whatever we want, but is that movie going to change the conversation that comics films can show the horrors of the holocaust like any real war movie as X-MEN 1 did or change how we see special effects in comics films like Spiderman 2 did?


    You bring up Coogler, Waititi and the Russo but these directors have yet to really archive an real comic book artistic uniqueness in the genre like Nolan, Singer or Raimi did just with one film, despite the insane media hype their MCU movies got. with these directors for you us to argue their talent we have to use their not mcu movies. whereas with a director like Nolan or Singer you can. Inception is dark knight, the Usual Suspects is X2. these directors are their own filmography.

    We cannot make any arguments that Black Panther is Judas and the black priest or Thor 3 is Jojo rabbit. lol, How can we? this aren't Disney kid friendly movies that followed a formula. Marvel is wasting these directors. Look at the joy James Gunn has shown with SS 2? are we going to say, oh because SS2 flopped and was not a success, it does not matter than Gunn said, his time on SS2 is the best he has ever had creatively as a director?

    Many of these director like James Mangold and Denis Villeneuve are not crazy, mean spirited or fucking assholes. In fact Denis would have been perfect for an X-MEN movie. his style will fit xmen well because Denis can do compelling stories, use grounded cinemetherapy, merged down adult themes to pg 13 and Denis, thanks to his films like Blade Runner and Arrival can do vfx in way that does not come off bombastic or 3rd arc needs big cgi, which is how on a good day, x-men films are better done but the fact that it will never happen, makes marvel look bad and not him, so yeah I refute him been called an asshole by anyone.
    Last edited by Castle; 09-24-2021 at 07:06 AM.

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