Denis Villeneuve isn't fond of Marvel zombies.

[numberthirty]

Also I dont see how anyone cannot make the same arguments that marvel has subpar scripts also if we are comparing it to Avatar, a lot of the times, it is the main reason many other marvel fans, maybe us more in the older era from the 90s have and will continue to question the mostly fixed Marvel light hearted action comedy approach. these are gatways to subpar scripts in comic films due to the nature of superheroes. Avatar's Script next to marvel was helped a lot more because of the tone of the film. It was still very T2 and very Cameron.

No, at least not in any existing version of T2.

[Dunkelzahn]

I was just watching SW A New Hope and I thought, wait a second, the next two sequels were directed by two work for hire guys that had no control over the script or the VFX.
So I guess Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi are both worthless pop corn dribble. Not "real cinema".

You forgot that this argument only is true for the MCU^^. Because all other movies are something totally different^^

[Kirby101]

You forgot that this argument only is true for the MCU^^. Because all other movies are something totally different^^

How could I forget.

[Albert1981]

What if you want to watch more "serious" superhero movies though? PBS and TCM isn't providing those. I think every genre, including superheroes, need both their silly and serious entries.

I can see where you're coming from and sympathize with your position. The MCU/Disney just won't go "serious" because the audiences they are focusing on are probably more interested in escapism and entertainment as opposed to films that "challenge" them and make "folks think". I'm one of them. You're talking to a guy who probably loves MAURY more than the MCU for crying out loud. But obviously there's a market for viewers who want some more serious superhero content. Now that think about it, since Disney and Sony now control most Marvel characters between them, I think more "adult" Marvel content could be a thing of the past! There's a reason why Marvel Studios has avoided "street level" stories. They're just too grim and dark a lot of the times (perhaps Hawkeye will change this?). What I'm trying to say is that I have no answer for Marvel aficionados who want more dark and gritty material on screen. I feel they'll have to turn to DC/Image/Dark Horse properties for that. I just don't see Feige changing his "family-friendly" approach to movie/television making. I do feel bad for Marvel fans such as yourself who feel excluded from studios (Disney and Sony) who continue refuse to go "dark and gritty." Although from what I've seen, Venom 2 looks pretty violent even though I don't think it's particularly "serious".

[inisideguy]

I can see where you're coming from and sympathize with your position. The MCU/Disney just won't go "serious" because the audiences they are focusing on are probably more interested in escapism and entertainment as opposed to films that "challenge" them and make "folks think". I'm one of them. You're talking to a guy who probably loves MAURY more than the MCU for crying out loud. But obviously there's a market for viewers who want some more serious superhero content. Now that think about it, since Disney and Sony now control most Marvel characters between them, I think more "adult" Marvel content could be a thing of the past! There's a reason why Marvel Studios has avoided "street level" stories. They're just too grim and dark a lot of the times (perhaps Hawkeye will change this?). What I'm trying to say is that I have no answer for Marvel aficionados who want more dark and gritty material on screen. I feel they'll have to turn to DC/Image/Dark Horse properties for that. I just don't see Feige changing his "family-friendly" approach to movie/television making. I do feel bad for Marvel fans such as yourself who feel excluded from studios (Disney and Sony) who continue refuse to go "dark and gritty." Although from what I've seen, Venom 2 looks pretty violent even though I don't think it's particularly "serious".

There is plenty of serious superhero material out there and comic book genre stuff. The DC/ Independent stuff that you mentioned is all over the place. Multiple Walking dead show, Y the last man/ The watchmen tv show,The invincible, the boys/ Marvel netflix shows/ and more and more stuff coming. The way these convos go it just seems focused on the current MCU and what they are doing and there are some who can't accept it. Its like someone coming on and saying I wish they made R rated Star Wars stuff, or R rated Disney animated movies. I mean great but thats not going to happen.

I wish there was a R rated Darkwing duck. It could be so much cooler. Thats basically what many people are arguing.

[Albert1981]

There is plenty of serious superhero material out there and comic book genre stuff. The DC/ Independent stuff that you mentioned is all over the place. Multiple Walking dead show, Y the last man/ The watchmen tv show,The invincible, the boys/ Marvel netflix shows/ and more and more stuff coming. The way these convos go it just seems focused on the current MCU and what they are doing and there are some who can't accept it. Its like someone coming on and saying I wish they made R rated Star Wars stuff, or R rated Disney animated movies. I mean great but thats not going to happen.

I wish there was a R rated Darkwing duck. It could be so much cooler. Thats basically what many people are arguing.

Oh yeah, there's plenty of the material out there that would scratch that itch for people who want more serious things in their superhero content. I didn't watch the Marvel Television stuff, but I heard they delved into some pretty rough material. I often wonder, when folks say "serious", do they mean they want more nudity, swearing and violence in Marvel live-action stuff? Or do they want subjects like sexual assault, substance abuse, and mental illness to be discussed in those shows/movies? I think for MARVEL fans, they will be disappointed to some extent if they want more shows like the Netflix ones. I know Deadpool is getting an R-rated movie, but I do think that's it. I know that Hit-Monkey show (from what I understand it's pretty "grown-up") on Hulu is coming out, but I just get the feeling that that will be the FINAL Marvel Television production that will see the light of the day. I don't think MCU on-screen versions of characters like Moon Knight, Daredevil and Ghost Rider will be as "dark and gritty" as they are in the comics. The DC/Independent stuff you mention can and will go "dark". Not sure about future Marvel on-screen content though.

[Dunkelzahn]

How could I forget.

I forget that often, only to be reminded after coming here again^^

[Castle]

Oh yeah, there's plenty of the material out there that would scratch that itch for people who want more serious things in their superhero content. I didn't watch the Marvel Television stuff, but I heard they delved into some pretty rough material. I often wonder, when folks say "serious", do they mean they want more nudity, swearing and violence in Marvel live-action stuff? Or do they want subjects like sexual assault, substance abuse, and mental illness to be discussed in those shows/movies? I think for MARVEL fans, they will be disappointed to some extent if they want more shows like the Netflix ones. I know Deadpool is getting an R-rated movie, but I do think that's it. I know that Hit-Monkey show (from what I understand it's pretty "grown-up") on Hulu is coming out, but I just get the feeling that that will be the FINAL Marvel Television production that will see the light of the day. I don't think MCU on-screen versions of characters like Moon Knight, Daredevil and Ghost Rider will be as "dark and gritty" as they are in the comics. The DC/Independent stuff you mention can and will go "dark". Not sure about future Marvel on-screen content though.

I don't get any street level vibe from the HawkEye trailer. I know I give CW shows a hard time, but there are more street vibe feels from Arrow and a bigger extent, Fox Gotham than I am getting from Hawkeye. Street Vibe movies or TV shows for instance Training Day or The Wire tend to have a not polished grit look, kinda off almost like a realistic rawness. Hawkeye looks very colourful and over polished, You can tell this is a primary Disney Marvel production, it does not look anything close to Luke Cage or Jessica Jones, so I think Hawkeye will be more like Wandavision without the sitcom aspects.

[Albert1981]

I don't get any street level vibe from the HawkEye trailer. I know I give CW shows a hard time, but there are more street vibe feels from Arrow and a bigger extent, Fox Gotham than I am getting from Hawkeye. Street Vibe movies or TV shows for instance Training Day or The Wire tend to have a not polished grit look, kinda off almost like a realistic rawness. Hawkeye looks very colourful and over polished, You can tell this is a primary Disney Marvel production, it does not look anything close to Luke Cage or Jessica Jones, so I think Hawkeye will be more like Wandavision without the sitcom aspects.

Disney productions always look polished and professional. So I'm okay with that. Maybe Hawkeye will be grittier. I'm enjoying the Marvel shows. BUT, from what I've read, I don't think they've reached the levels of the Sopranos, the Wire, the Walking Dead, Game of Thrones, Breaking Bad and Downton Abbey in terms of 21st century "prestige television" though. That could change though.

[tabo61]

This guy rants too much.

[Midvillian1322]

Disney productions always look polished and professional. So I'm okay with that. Maybe Hawkeye will be grittier. I'm enjoying the Marvel shows. BUT, from what I've read, I don't think they've reached the levels of the Sopranos, the Wire, the Walking Dead, Game of Thrones, Breaking Bad and Downton Abbey in terms of 21st century "prestige television" though. That could change though.

Downtown Abby is a weird choice to add to that list. Not saying it's not a good show(I don't care for it but that's doesn't matter). But it's Soap opera -ish melodrama done in a period price. Popular show yes but that's the first time I've ever seen it mentioned with the Sopranos or the Wire. Neither here nor there though.


Side note something people forget about the Sopranos is that show was a dark comedy with a Mob-drama back drop. It became less Comedic over time but one of the best episodes the Pine Barrons was a straight up comedy episode.. According to a certain someone comedy=bad. Yet the Sopranos consider the best show of all time by alot of people had tons of comedy. Everything Pauile did was comedy Gold,even killing an old lady or beating a waiter to death was done in a comedic way. Seeing Junior randomly yell out Tony never had the makings of a variety athlete and Tony's reaction would have me on the floor all the time.

[Castle]

Disney productions always look polished and professional. So I'm okay with that. Maybe Hawkeye will be grittier. I'm enjoying the Marvel shows. BUT, from what I've read, I don't think they've reached the levels of the Sopranos, the Wire, the Walking Dead, Game of Thrones, Breaking Bad and Downton Abbey in terms of 21st century "prestige television" though. That could change though.

Most movies and tv look ''polished'' or look passable, it is part their job, however when I said polish I was talking more of an artistic style of statement than just a movie looking a certain to way of normal.

Scorsese for example should get some credit for at least attempting to watch MCU films but he says, he stopped and could not carry on because they all look like theme parks, which is the kind of non-artistic polish I was trying to point out with hawkeye, there is a look MCU has both in tv and film that if you are aware or have worked or studying film making you can tell, that their products have a very not so wanted kid friendly look that feels sometimes not fitted for marvel or is trying too hard to contain marvel against its own will. There movies and tv shows are also too colorful, which is strange because I have seen some fans, now giving Matrix 4 the same criticism from the trailer.

I don't think they've reached the levels of the Sopranos, the Wire, the Walking Dead, Game of Thrones, Breaking Bad and Downton Abbey in terms of 21st century "prestige television" though. That could change though.

No they have not and I dont feel it will change either because it will mean Disney will have to change their model and mission statement and I dont see them doing that. its ironic you mentioned those shows, because when I think of some of them the first thing I remember is just how expensive some of them were. Deadwood, Westworld, Broadwalk Empire to name other shows. I don't see marvel reaching those levels.

Some Game of thrones fans use to make jokes that the only reason Daenerys Targaryen 2 of her 3 dragons were killed off was because HBO could no longer sustain the budget, Disney has more money than HBO and any other studio yet if you watch Games Of Thrones and Shang Chi back to back, you will see how poor looking and over the top computer generated Shang Chi dragons looks next to Daenerys Targaryen's dragon that looked far superior in CGI and the question is why? I ask the why question based on 100% objective film and tv critique?

It really should not be so, from the general movie vs tv quality argument and comparisons, even if Game of Thrones is Cable, it is still TV, which means a movie's quality should still by default be higher.

[Albert1981]

Downtown Abby is a weird choice to add to that list. Not saying it's not a good show(I don't care for it but that's doesn't matter). But it's Soap opera -ish melodrama done in a period price. Popular show yes but that's the first time I've ever seen it mentioned with the Sopranos or the Wire. Neither here nor there though.


Side note something people forget about the Sopranos is that show was a dark comedy with a Mob-drama back drop. It became less Comedic over time but one of the best episodes the Pine Barrons was a straight up comedy episode.. According to a certain someone comedy=bad. Yet the Sopranos consider the best show of all time by alot of people had tons of comedy. Everything Pauile did was comedy Gold,even killing an old lady or beating a waiter to death was done in a comedic way. Seeing Junior randomly yell out Tony never had the makings of a variety athlete and Tony's reaction would have me on the floor all the time.

Yeah, Downton Abbey was a weird choice to add to that list. Because like you said it was a period soap opera show as opposed to the other stuff I mentioned. But I think it was mentioned due to its popularity. British shows often don't succeed in the United States. That one did. It obviously did a good job if George Clooney was desperate to take part in the show!

I liked the Sopranos when it was funny. The Pine Barrons episode was definitely that. Comedy does not equal bad in my view. It's hard for dramas to do it, and I thought the Sopranos pulled it off on several occasions. Great show.

[Albert1981]

Most movies and tv look ''polished'' or look passable, it is part their job, however when I said polish I was talking more of an artistic style of statement than just a movie looking a certain to way of normal.

Scorsese for example should get some credit for at least attempting to watch MCU films but he says, he stopped and could not carry on because they all look like theme parks, which is the kind of non-artistic polish I was trying to point out with hawkeye, there is a look MCU has both in tv and film that if you are aware or have worked or studying film making you can tell, that their products have a very not so wanted kid friendly look that feels sometimes not fitted for marvel or is trying too hard to contain marvel against its own will. There movies and tv shows are also too colorful, which is strange because I have seen some fans, now giving Matrix 4 the same criticism from the trailer.



No they have not and I dont feel it will change either because it will mean Disney will have to change their model and mission statement and I dont see them doing that. its ironic you mentioned those shows, because when I think of some of them the first thing I remember is just how expensive some of them were. Deadwood, Westworld, Broadwalk Empire to name other shows. I don't see marvel reaching those levels.

Some Game of thrones fans use to make jokes that the only reason Daenerys Targaryen 2 of her 3 dragons were killed off was because HBO could no longer sustain the budget, Disney has more money than HBO and any other studio yet if you watch Games Of Thrones and Shang Chi back to back, you will see how poor looking and over the top computer generated Shang Chi dragons looks next to Daenerys Targaryen's dragon that looked far superior in CGI and the question is why? I ask the why question based on 100% objective film and tv critique?

It really should not be so, from the general movie vs tv quality argument and comparisons, even if Game of Thrones is Cable, it is still TV, which means a movie's quality should still by default be higher.

Well, my brother really liked Mad Men. And that was a VERY expensive show to make and well-received by critics. This and the other shows I mentioned earlier were kind of unique in my opinion. They kind of did their own thing and were extremely original in their own ways. I feel that the Marvel/Disney stuff is more like Law & Order: SVU and NCIS. Heavily serialized, but of a pretty high quality because Disney demands that kind of thing in their productions. I enjoy the shows because I like superhero content, but I don't think it's fair to compare them to dramas like True Detective or anything like that. Apples and oranges.

[Noodle]

Some Game of thrones fans use to make jokes that the only reason Daenerys Targaryen 2 of her 3 dragons were killed off was because HBO could no longer sustain the budget, Disney has more money than HBO and any other studio yet if you watch Games Of Thrones and Shang Chi back to back, you will see how poor looking and over the top computer generated Shang Chi dragons looks next to Daenerys Targaryen's dragon that looked far superior in CGI and the question is why? I ask the why question based on 100% objective film and tv critique?

Style and tone, although I know you often have difficulty with understanding those. The types of dragons in Game of Thrones are completely different than the types of dragons used in Shang-Chi. Pulled from entirely different types of source material based on entirely different geographic concepts.