What do you think should be done with Wallace West?

[abetterday]

I think it's sad to say that Wallace should go just because he doesn't bring in sales. The same thing could be said for Bart. His Flash series crash and burn after only 13 issues. And when the Flash TV show premiered on the CW network Barry's personally was obviously inspired by Bart in the comics because Barry traditionally did not act like that at all. Barry in comics before he died in COIE was always kind of rigid and straight forward. Consequently the Flash TV show kind of made Bart irrelevant in comics even though I know he was cast on the show last season.

[Godlike13]

Neither does Jesse, Max, Bart, or most speedsters. Have any of them been linked to an increase in sales anywhere lately? Even Wally doesn't seem to have increased sales on Flash. I don't see anyone saying that we should dump those characters because they didn't move the bottom line.

That's the point here; Wallace gets a bad rap because of DC's incompetence, but everyone else gets a free pass for their bad stories. And I don't like that hypocrisy. Dislike Wallace for the character he's become, not because DC screwed up his launch ten years ago and then fixed it. That's just holding a grudge.

Let's not ignore the valid counter-arguments people like me have made here.

I'm not blaming readers for DC not making Wallace something that interests them, I'm blaming the readers who haven't given the character a shot because of a (real big) mistake made a decade ago that hasn't mattered since Wally's return in 2016. I already made that clear.

As for Yara, yeah she hit it big right from the start, and we should only be so lucky for every new character to see equal success. But that's not how it works and it's anything but easy and we're all aware of the odds new characters face in getting off the ground. For every success story like Yara, there's dozens of new characters who didn't hit it big.

They at least have once upon time, but have you seen them around lately. No one gets a free pass for their bad stories. Wallace gets a bad rap because at the end of the day no really gives a crap about him. So any negative noise is generally just met with apathy, leaving just the negative noise. Nothing is fixed. He's still not a character that really generates anything positive. He's just not a awful as he was. Maybe in another 5 years though...

And the thing is, its not valid. Being like the others isn't a convincing argument of Wallace's worth or justifies his existence. Your just further pointing out his redundancy. A redundancy that is baked into the characters bones regardless of Wally's return.

Again, Yara is how it should work. Odds aren't great but when a new character is done right it doesn't take a decades. There are dozens of new characters who didn't hit, more even, but there are new characters that do hit. And thats the thing about about new characters, they can just make more. But when they cling on to the one that clearly are not hitting. They are just wasting everyone's time.

[Aahz]

Wally's kids would be a better choice huh? Not terribly long ago, forums like this were full of posters saying that the twins were an abomination that had ruined Wally and they should be thrown into limbo and forgotten. But now they're popular and a good addition to the mythos? Funny what a little bit of time and development can do. Kettle, I'd like you to meet my good friend, Pot.

I'm not that deep in the flash fandom, main point I wanted to make is that the Flash Family is quite big, and that there aren't that many books for these characters to appear in, so in the end DC has to decide on which of them they are going to focus.

[TheRay]

Did Red Robin work out?

In almost every way, yes.

[Ascended]

No one gets a free pass for their bad stories.

But they do often get the chance to redeem themselves and improve. Williamson took that chance and Wallace is better for it.

Nothing is fixed. He's still not a character that really generates anything positive. He's just not a awful as he was.

Either nothing is fixed or he's not as awful as he was but I don't think it can be both?

And the thing is, its not valid. Being like the others isn't a convincing argument of Wallace's worth or justifies his existence. Your just further pointing out his redundancy. A redundancy that is baked into the characters bones regardless of Wally's return.

No no, I'm not using the family dynamic to argue that Wallace deserves to be used, I'm saying the family dynamic disproves the notion that Wallace and Wally are too similar. Saying either character should be dumped because they're both Iris' nephews is a flawed argument in this franchise, but the family ties aren't a reason to keep Wallace around either.

I'm not that deep in the flash fandom, main point I wanted to make is that the Flash Family is quite big, and that there aren't that many books for these characters to appear in, so in the end DC has to decide on which of them they are going to focus.

And that's a valid argument for Wallace being written out. Or at the very least for a major reshuffle of the Flash family and a re-focusing on who gets used and where. In Wallace's case, I view him as Barry's sidekick so I'd expect him to show up wherever Barry is but that'd depend on what books are available for Flashes to showcase in, who writers wanted to use, etc.

[BohemiaDrinker]

That's kind of the problem with Wallace sometimes. He was made expressly to be a sidekick for Barry but his main character feature with Barry is hating Barry for gaslighting him and running off angry. Kind of a muddy situation.

I wholeheartdly agree with this. Whi
ch is why I proposed tying him to Jay.

When "fixing a mistake" and "course correcting" takes more then half a decade just to get to solid ground, ya that is something audiences probably shouldn't support. Thats a lot of time and investment for mediocre results.

Wally took just as long. The book was about to get cancelled when Waid took over.

[Godlike13]

But they do often get the chance to redeem themselves and improve. Williamson took that chance and Wallace is better for it.

Either nothing is fixed or he's not as awful as he was but I don't think it can be both?

No no, I'm not using the family dynamic to argue that Wallace deserves to be used, I'm saying the family dynamic disproves the notion that Wallace and Wally are too similar. Saying either character should be dumped because they're both Iris' nephews is a flawed argument in this franchise, but the family ties aren't a reason to keep Wallace around either.

The car still isn't running, it just doesn't look at as bad. Car still is far from fixed though. Wallace never went anywhere. He gotten the chance and the best they have done was make him tolerable. And what. How does having the same family dynamic disprove the notion that Wallace and Wally are too similar?

Wally took just as long. The book was about to get cancelled when Waid took over.

That was like 62 issues in. Even with successful characters thats how it works. Things get stale, number wane, then new creators are brought in an attempt to revitalize. There was still something there to begin with. With Wallace there was no interest to begin with, and even now, half a decade later, he's still not actually in a viable state. This isn't its 6 year later and now he taking off. He's still far from anything resembling that. With the best his supporters can defend him with is well maybe in another 5.

[Ascended]

He gotten the chance and the best they have done was make him tolerable.

Which is a pretty big improvement from where he started, and it was accomplished with him as a supporting character. As far as recoveries go, I don't think that's so bad. DC spent more time trying to make Aqualad work. It took years before the majority of the Bat fandom accepted Damian.

And really, is anyone expecting Wallace to become a big headline star? I'm not. All I expect of the character is for him to fill the "sidekick/sometimes Titan" role, providing all the typical narrative functions we expect, and not be awful while doing it. That's not beyond him, he's already done it.

How does having the same family dynamic disprove the notion that Wallace and Wally are too similar?

One of the big complaints I see (in general, not necessarily you) is "the Wallace/Wally origins overlap too much, they're too closely related/similar, so one has to go." That's what the larger family dynamic disproves. It's not a reason to keep Wallace around, it's just showing that this particular issue isn't a hurdle.

That was like 62 issues in. Even with successful characters thats how it works. Things get stale, number wane, then new creators are brought in an attempt to revitalize. There was still something there to begin with.

And there's something there with Wallace. You just don't like what it is. That doesn't mean there's no value to it. And nothing is gained by Wallace's removal; it's subtractive and not additive, and this franchise has been shrunk enough as it is.

[marhawkman]

The car still isn't running, it just doesn't look at as bad. Car still is far from fixed though. Wallace never went anywhere. He gotten the chance and the best they have done was make him tolerable. And what. How does having the same family dynamic disprove the notion that Wallace and Wally are too similar?

I'd argue it makes them more similar?

[Godlike13]

Which is a pretty big improvement from where he started, and it was accomplished with him as a supporting character. As far as recoveries go, I don't think that's so bad. DC spent more time trying to make Aqualad work. It took years before the majority of the Bat fandom accepted Damian.

And really, is anyone expecting Wallace to become a big headline star? I'm not. All I expect of the character is for him to fill the "sidekick/sometimes Titan" role, providing all the typical narrative functions we expect, and not be awful while doing it. That's not beyond him, he's already done it.



One of the big complaints I see (in general, not necessarily you) is "the Wallace/Wally origins overlap too much, they're too closely related/similar, so one has to go." That's what the larger family dynamic disproves. It's not a reason to keep Wallace around, it's just showing that this particular issue isn't a hurdle.



And there's something there with Wallace. You just don't like what it is. That doesn't mean there's no value to it. And nothing is gained by Wallace's removal; it's subtractive and not additive, and this franchise has been shrunk enough as it is.

Your trying to grade on a curve. Yes it's an improvement from the failed reboot he started as, but he is still far from anything good or viable. And still lightyears away from anything even remotely marketable. Thats not good. It took one cartoon, in which he debuted, to make the new Aqualad work, and Damian was pretty much immediately accepted how he was designed to initially be accepted. And then it took all of 3 issues to flip it the other way. More examples on how it shouldn't be that hard, or take a decade. And to not even become headline character but a sometimes sidekick/peripheral Teen Titan. I don't think you can set the bar lower here.

And that still isn't a very convincing argument. Your pointing out a similarity to try and disprove issues with similarity. Its like trying to convince someone that its not an issue Nightwing is redundant because the others are also redundant.

The franchise can't really support a big size, so quite a bit can be gained by removing Wallace and clearing space. If there was something there with Wallace there would be some sort of positive metric to support such a claim. But even the best you can come with is that he has potential to be a tolerable support character.

[Digifiend]

And let's not pretend that Bart, Jesse, Max, Jay, and the other speedsters are in great shape right now either. Bendis got Bart back into a recognizable shape but it took the entire 52/Rebirth era to get there and now the kid is MIA again. I'm not sure if Jesse even exists currently.

Jesse was rescued from the Speed Force, alongside Max Mercury, in Williamson's last Flash arc, Finish Line. So yeah, she exists and is merely in limbo.

[John Venus]

I'm not that deep in the flash fandom, main point I wanted to make is that the Flash Family is quite big, and that there aren't that many books for these characters to appear in, so in the end DC has to decide on which of them they are going to focus.

It used to be Barry now Wally is back in the main focus again.

It helps that the different speedsters are on different teams to begin with. Barry is with the Infinite Frontier team, Wally is usually associated with the Titans/JL, Wallace is on Teen Titans and Jay is on the JSA.

Build them up on team books before spinning them off on to solo books.

[Alpha]

Your trying to grade on a curve. Yes it's an improvement from the failed reboot he started as, but he is still far from anything good or viable. And still lightyears away from anything even remotely marketable. Thats not good. It took one cartoon, in which he debuted, to make the new Aqualad work, and Damian was pretty much immediately accepted how he was designed to initially be accepted. And then it took all of 3 issues to flip it the other way. More examples on how it shouldn't be that hard, or take a decade. And to not even become headline character but a sometimes sidekick/peripheral Teen Titan. I don't think you can set the bar lower here.

And that still isn't a very convincing argument. Your pointing out a similarity to try and disprove issues with similarity. Its like trying to convince someone that its not an issue Nightwing is redundant because the others are also redundant.

The franchise can't really support a big size, so quite a bit can be gained by removing Wallace and clearing space. If there was something there with Wallace there would be some sort of positive metric to support such a claim. But even the best you can come with is that he has potential to be a tolerable support character.

Who exactly is being forced to use Wallace? And if people have good ideas for the character why not use them? Why are you even spending this much time discussing a character you don't care about?

[Godlike13]

Honestly im just caught up in the discussion now. I don't know if any one is being forced to use Wallace now, but i think his inclusion in some things are mandated. If anyone has good ideas with the character though they're certainly not using them. DC tends to cling on to bad ideas to cover poor work or stubborn decisions, and it leaves less room for good ones. Kid Flash is a decent mantle that opens up opportunities. Which they are just kind of wasting instead of trying again with a better new Kid Flash or a new young speedster equivalent. They clung to Tim's gen for so long despite their downward spiral. Its been actually nice to see them introduce a new generation of characters like Damian, Kaldur, and Yara. But when it comes to the Flash family we are kind of left with the dud that is Wallace. Don't come after me though. Convince me of his worth if you think im wrong.

[Aahz]

It helps that the different speedsters are on different teams to begin with. Barry is with the Infinite Frontier team, Wally is usually associated with the Titans/JL, Wallace is on Teen Titans and Jay is on the JSA.

Thing is that there is still no JSA book, and that Titans academy focusses mostly on new characters.

And the thing is while Barry, Wally and Jay are usually don't have competion for their places in team books, when it comes to Wallace you could easily put Bart or Wally's kids, or maybe even Alinta on every Teen Titans/Young Justice/... lineup instead of him.