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  1. #16
    Astonishing Member CSTowle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LifeIsILL View Post
    Never felt her villains were weak. She has a really diverse cast of villains, which DC seems to forget.
    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    Disagree that Wonder Woman's villains are weak. Her rogue gallery is deep and varied, with several world level or higher threats, buts writers want to shill the Greek gods, Cheetah or Grail.
    We can agree to disagree. I've been reading comics for decades and I can name two Wonder Woman villains. And I think Circe's sort of bland for a sorceress type character, and a were-cheetah (whatever her strengths/powers are depending on the writer) doesn't seem like she ought to be in the same league as Wonder Woman. It's like taking Spider-Man and making his main villain Scorpion or the Tarantula. Fine to show up and get a whupping every 10-15 issues, but arguably your archenemy? Dang.

    That said, any character can be great in the hands of a good writer. Warren Ellis made me give a s##t about Jack Flagg in his Thunderbolts run:

    s-l400.jpg

    He even got to be on the Guardians of the Galaxy for a cup of coffee because of Ellis' handling of him, though they weren't the Disney mega-franchise they are now at that time. Alan Moore took Rob Liefeld's "Edgy", teeth-gritting Superman knock-off Supreme and made some of my favorite Superman stories ever.

    supreme.jpg

    But that doesn't mean that they stand on their own. Doctor Doom. Thanos. Darkseid. the Joker. Lex Luthor. Green Goblin. Loki. Those are names that earn respect. I'd argue Cheetah is included in group villain shots only because she's Wonder Woman's main villain and they feel they need to, but I'd say she's not even on par with your Two-Faces, Black Adams, Captain Colds, or Baron Zemos. Wonder Woman deserves better. As to power levels, that means nothing if the readers don't care. Any writer can create a new character that can rewrite reality or lift a galaxy (and many do, as it's something you can do right away rather than taking the time to establish character/motivation/story) but they don't have staying power unless fans connect with them in some way. How many new "smartest man/woman in the universe" characters have we seen pop up in the last 20 years, only to fade into the background or cede panel time to the next version of them because fans just don't care?

    If she has world-beaters in her rogue's gallery that aren't on Mount Olympus that's great, but again I've been reading (mostly superhero) comics since I was a wee lad and can name only two of her villains. And gun to your head, if you had to poll 100 random comic fans how many do you think would be able to do better without throwing out names from Greek myth and hoping they stuck?
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  2. #17
    Extraordinary Member John Venus's Avatar
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    It seems to be a matter of taste then and taste is subjective.

    I found Cheetah to be pretty compelling. The common thread in all her comic book appearances is that she is consumed by jealousy and is willing to take power from questionable source that carry a hefty price tag. Diana doesn't have to fight Cheetah but also have to save her friend and prevent her from causing to herself or others (including Diana herself).





  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by atomicskull View Post
    I never really found Wonder Woman all that important to the DCU. She's only considered "iconic" b/c she's the first.
    That would be true for any iconic character of DC, being first was time and time again a core theme for Superman as example and it makes not even any sense that Wonder Woman would be not important to the DCU looking at what she is all connected to, DC had just failed to write her properly time and time again.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by CSTowle View Post
    We can agree to disagree. I've been reading comics for decades and I can name two Wonder Woman villains. And I think Circe's sort of bland for a sorceress type character, and a were-cheetah (whatever her strengths/powers are depending on the writer) doesn't seem like she ought to be in the same league as Wonder Woman. It's like taking Spider-Man and making his main villain Scorpion or the Tarantula. Fine to show up and get a whupping every 10-15 issues, but arguably your archenemy? Dang.
    Cheetah is supposed to be a speedster:



    with magical claws, and Wonder Woman is often vulnerable to piercing or slicing. But if Cheetah is her archenemy is highly debated anyway, don't you know Ares, and why is Circe bland?

  5. #20
    Astonishing Member CSTowle's Avatar
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    I do know Ares, like the rest of the Greek myths, but as was stated they're not exactly Wonder Woman originals. Neither is Circe, but I'll forgive that because they've elevated her importance as it relates to WW. As to why Circe is bland, I say blame the writers. Nothing wrong with borrowing from mythology, pretty good shortcut and I'll take Greek mythology over Norse any day. Still, Thor at least had his Absorbing Mans and Destroyers.
    Formerly finfangfool

  6. #21
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    I wouldn't call Absorbing Man particularly interesting and the Destroyer isn't a villain so much as it is a tool that is used by villains.

  7. #22
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    Diana has 3 villains that I think are really under hyped.
    The first one is Devastation. Her origin is pretty boring, basically born out of the same clay as WW but created by evil titans.
    She is essentially the WW version of Lilith. An evil demonic entity in the body of a little girl. Her only goal is to make humanity destroy itself in the most horrendous manner possible. And she can create psychological illusions. Plus she has all the strength of Diana.


    She is a master of psychological warfare. She can change her age whichever way it suits her. When she fights Diana she deliberately makes herself a child because she knows it makes it harder for Diana to attack her. It's supposed to be uncomfortable. And at the same time she can pretend to be a punk teenage girl to convince a teenage kid into starting a school shooting to impress her. Thematically it's a perversion Diana's very soul because of how far she has to go in order to fix Man's world. Even a child can be the great threat to the world.
    Last edited by Alpha; 09-26-2021 at 08:21 AM.

  8. #23
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Here she is as a little girl to make Diana uncomfortable with attacking her

    Attachment 112132

    Second, she is able to use Diana's allies against her. Like here where she creates a psyhic illusion for Cassie that she and Devastation are each other. This is some Dr Psycho and Circe level BS
    Attachment 112134

    And she has the power to create mass hysteria and violence, like when she destroys a whole town simply by confusing the inhabitants to kill each other. This is a Ares type disaster
    Attachment 112133

  9. #24
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Her twisted mind traumatizing a young family with psychological traps that lead the mother to kill a father without even realizing it.
    Attachment 112136

    Her convincing a kid to kill his teacher just to impress her at school.
    Attachment 112138

    Her starting Confederate uprisings s all over the country with a powerful gas
    Attachment 112137

  10. #25
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    The second unerrated WW villain is Dr Poison as written by Eric Luke. She only has one single two part story in his run, but she is absolutely mad. Look at her introduction right here. The analytical psychopathic narration where she details how her virus is horrifically deforming a human being is so iconic. And I love how she uses magical blood to create a chemical virus. She's a chemist that turns magic into liquid substance that she can decompose and repurpose. In this story she uses the blood of a god to transform an ordinary man into a horrific giant spider/ human beast.

    Attachment 110461
    Attachment 110462
    Attachment 110463

  11. #26
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    And finally of course, there is Dr Psycho. That guy is creepy and terrifying and hateful.

  12. #27
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    I'd agree primarily with the posit that Wonder Woman has gotten short shrift, compared to the other two legs of the trinity, and doesn't seem to get setting-relevant storylines like Flash (Flashpoint) or Green Lantern (Emotional Spectrum stuff) get.

    I mean, she's still punching above Aquaman, of the 'core' League, but that's not great when she's supposed to be in the top three, and seems to fall around the fifth place for big story pushes.

    As for her villains, I'm fine with Ares, Cheetah and Circle, but I want to see more of Giganta, darn it!
    Last edited by Sutekh; 09-26-2021 at 08:32 AM.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    I'd agree primarily with the posit that Wonder Woman has gotten short shrift, compared to the other two legs of the trinity, and doesn't seem to get setting-relevant storylines like Flash (Flashpoint) or Green Lantern (Emotional Spectrum stuff) get.

    I mean, she's still punching above Aquaman, of the 'core' League, but that's not great when she's supposed to be in the top three, and seems to fall around the fifth place for big story pushes.

    As for her villains, I'm fine with Ares, Cheetah and Circle, but I want to see more of Giganta, darn it!
    I wouldn't count not getting a story like Flashpoint as getting the short shrift. As for being setting relevant, do you mean her setting or the wider DCU? Because the emotional spectrum is really only relevant to Green Lantern for the most part.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by CSTowle View Post
    You could say the same about Iron Man over at Marvel, but he's been an icon/Avengers mainstay for night-on 60 years. Her villains are weak, but outside of the top 2 in Luthor and Brainiac you could say the same about Superman (most of his others are pests/complications like Mxyptlk or Bizarro or not really top-shelf).
    Not to derail the thread but I don’t understand how people have this misconception. A lot of people keep saying that Superman doesn’t have good villains…and then constantly cite some of Superman’s villains as some of the best of all time.

    Outside of Luthor and Brainiac (two really heavy-hitting villains), there’s still Metallo, Parasite, Toyman, Doomsday, Mongul, Cyborg Superman, Bruno Mannheim and Intergang, Silver Banshee, General freakin’ Zod, etc. All of whom have had at least some success in outside media or iconic renditions in the comics.

    So yeah, Supes’ rogues are solid..

    Anyway, bringing this back to Wonder Woman: I don’t think the issue has ever really been with the character herself or her mythos. The issue has more so been with how DC marketed her and how much effort they put into promoting her mythos in the larger universe.

    DC has always approached Wonder Woman as a very niche character. I think that’s partly due to the fact that, since she’s such a feminist icon, DC has always had this subconscious belief that she could only be marketable or appealing to women. So, therefore, they have to “preserve” her in a status quo that female readers would approve of for fear of being perceived as sexist/misogynist.

    And, while her feminist roots are important, it’s just blatantly untrue that Wonder Woman is only appealing to women. In fact, I’m pretty sure most of her readers are men. On top of that, that assumes that women are a monolith and that there are a set of character traits that universally appeal to all women.

    But because of that, there’s a feeling that DC is afraid to take risks or experiment with Wonder Woman in the same way they do with, say, Batman. When you think about it, DC puts Batman through the ringer. They constantly shift his status quo and many times, bring him to the brink of death. And that…makes for really interesting stories and concepts. But, it feels like they’re afraid to do that with Wonder Woman because this need to keep her “pristine.”

    One of the few times they did try to shift Diana’s status quo in a big way, it led to a literal backlash from Gloria Steinem and the women’s rights movement. Though, to be fair, Gloria was rightfully annoyed at that direction.

    BUT, ever since then, it seems that that had a chilling effect on the directions DC feels they can take with Diana. One that it seems they’re now starting to come out of. Now, we have things like Wonder Girl expanding her mythos, or Wonder Woman: Dead Earth and Evolution presenting the character in different lights, or Death Metal where the character is pushed to literally being the savior of the DCU. So, in recent years, it seems that DC is just starting to think “Hey, we CAN do things with Diana. We can put her in different scenarios, and use her and her supporting cast in experimental ways.” In other words, it seems like DC feels they can finally treat Diana as a full-fledged character and not JUST an icon.

    I’ve been saying this for a while, but why is Ares not as prolific in the DCU as Loki is in the Marvel Universe? He’s literally a God of War. He should be a cosmic threat on the same level of Darkseid, BUT…we only ever see him in Wonder Woman’s book. I mean, we just had an event centered around the cosmic machinations of an evil version of Batman. I think we’re ready for Ares to headline an event in the modern era.

  15. #30
    Mighty Member Psy-lock's Avatar
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    Wonder Woman's Rogues Gallery is one of the best actually. Unfortunately, it's also one of the most underutilized.

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