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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Goblin of Sector 2814 View Post
    Anyway, bringing this back to Wonder Woman: I don’t think the issue has ever really been with the character herself or her mythos. The issue has more so been with how DC marketed her and how much effort they put into promoting her mythos in the larger universe.

    DC has always approached Wonder Woman as a very niche character. I think that’s partly due to the fact that, since she’s such a feminist icon, DC has always had this subconscious belief that she could only be marketable or appealing to women. So, therefore, they have to “preserve” her in a status quo that female readers would approve of for fear of being perceived as sexist/misogynist.

    And, while her feminist roots are important, it’s just blatantly untrue that Wonder Woman is only appealing to women. In fact, I’m pretty sure most of her readers are men. On top of that, that assumes that women are a monolith and that there are a set of character traits that universally appeal to all women.

    But because of that, there’s a feeling that DC is afraid to take risks or experiment with Wonder Woman in the same way they do with, say, Batman. When you think about it, DC puts Batman through the ringer. They constantly shift his status quo and many times, bring him to the brink of death. And that…makes for really interesting stories and concepts. But, it feels like they’re afraid to do that with Wonder Woman because this need to keep her “pristine.”

    One of the few times they did try to shift Diana’s status quo in a big way, it led to a literal backlash from Gloria Steinem and the women’s rights movement. Though, to be fair, Gloria was rightfully annoyed at that direction.

    BUT, ever since then, it seems that that had a chilling effect on the directions DC feels they can take with Diana. One that it seems they’re now starting to come out of. Now, we have things like Wonder Girl expanding her mythos, or Wonder Woman: Dead Earth and Evolution presenting the character in different lights, or Death Metal where the character is pushed to literally being the savior of the DCU. So, in recent years, it seems that DC is just starting to think “Hey, we CAN do things with Diana. We can put her in different scenarios, and use her and her supporting cast in experimental ways.” In other words, it seems like DC feels they can finally treat Diana as a full-fledged character and not JUST an icon.
    What exactly was the backlash?

  2. #32
    Extraordinary Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CSTowle View Post
    I do know Ares, like the rest of the Greek myths, but as was stated they're not exactly Wonder Woman originals. Neither is Circe, but I'll forgive that because they've elevated her importance as it relates to WW. As to why Circe is bland, I say blame the writers. Nothing wrong with borrowing from mythology, pretty good shortcut and I'll take Greek mythology over Norse any day. Still, Thor at least had his Absorbing Mans and Destroyers.
    I mean, WW's character was derived from Greek mythology. It's not like that time Superman beat Atlas and Samson in a double arm wrestling competition to show how awesome he was. In WW's case, it would be weird if Greek mythological figures weren't part of her lore since she is the daughter of Hippolyta and her story starts with a retelling of Heracle's Ninth Labor. Part of the point of WW's lore is recontexualizing Greek mythology and telling them from a different perspective. When told from the Amazon's pov Heracles and Theseus don't exactly come off as heroic, Circe come off less of a supporting character and her cruelty in turning men into beasts is confronted.

    Ares was also kind of a loser in mythology who was often humiliated. In realizing him as a metaphor for man's savagery and desire for war he flourished as a big bad. Circe, similarly goes from a simple potion master as depicted in the Odyssey to being a literal god killer. If anything the WW lore elevated them instead of the other way around. You could even say it did them wonders. (ba dum tush)

    As for non mythological villains, Diana has Cheetah, Giganta, Psycho, Dr Poison and Silver Swan. The problem is more that WW doesn't get as many adaptations as Superman and Batman so her rogues aren't that well known and several writers try to reinvent the wheel with her instead of building up on what's already there.

    Her most recent Sensational Comics run did a good job of spotlighting her lesser known villains. I think she has a solid rogues gallery which needs more love.


    Quote Originally Posted by Green Goblin of Sector 2814 View Post
    Anyway, bringing this back to Wonder Woman: I don’t think the issue has ever really been with the character herself or her mythos. The issue has more so been with how DC marketed her and how much effort they put into promoting her mythos in the larger universe.

    DC has always approached Wonder Woman as a very niche character. I think that’s partly due to the fact that, since she’s such a feminist icon, DC has always had this subconscious belief that she could only be marketable or appealing to women. So, therefore, they have to “preserve” her in a status quo that female readers would approve of for fear of being perceived as sexist/misogynist.

    And, while her feminist roots are important, it’s just blatantly untrue that Wonder Woman is only appealing to women. In fact, I’m pretty sure most of her readers are men. On top of that, that assumes that women are a monolith and that there are a set of character traits that universally appeal to all women.

    But because of that, there’s a feeling that DC is afraid to take risks or experiment with Wonder Woman in the same way they do with, say, Batman. When you think about it, DC puts Batman through the ringer. They constantly shift his status quo and many times, bring him to the brink of death. And that…makes for really interesting stories and concepts. But, it feels like they’re afraid to do that with Wonder Woman because this need to keep her “pristine.”

    One of the few times they did try to shift Diana’s status quo in a big way, it led to a literal backlash from Gloria Steinem and the women’s rights movement. Though, to be fair, Gloria was rightfully annoyed at that direction.

    BUT, ever since then, it seems that that had a chilling effect on the directions DC feels they can take with Diana. One that it seems they’re now starting to come out of. Now, we have things like Wonder Girl expanding her mythos, or Wonder Woman: Dead Earth and Evolution presenting the character in different lights, or Death Metal where the character is pushed to literally being the savior of the DCU. So, in recent years, it seems that DC is just starting to think “Hey, we CAN do things with Diana. We can put her in different scenarios, and use her and her supporting cast in experimental ways.” In other words, it seems like DC feels they can finally treat Diana as a full-fledged character and not JUST an icon.
    I don't think it's the feminist aspect or the vocal female fan base that holds WW back. My impression has always been that DC always thought that men were their primary target audience and thus they believed that the character wouldn't appeal to them unless they change her somehow. Either by adding more men or a father figure or getting rid of the Amazons. There is also the often misguided sense of what a strong female character is.

    The mod era happened because DC wanted to fit her into the mold of what they thought a strong female character should be rather than taking advantage of her own inherent uniqueness. Of course, when the literal co-founder of modern day feminism protests your take you're shit out of luck.

    Then DC tried again in NU52 by boiling her down to daughter of Zeus, Succubi Amazons and turning her into the tooth gritting Warrior Woman which didn't prove to be a popular take for long time WW readers. Only this time, there was no Gloria Steinmen to denounce it. It's pretty clear that most long term WW writers, artists and fans would rather cut the cord on the whole Zeus thing and it's DC whose holding them back.

    In reality, while there are a significant of MRA or dudebro types who rejects that's not straight white male, there have also been non toxic types who enjoy so-called 'girly' stuff like Winx Club, Cardcaptor Sakura and xxxholic. Also vice versa, as there are plenty women who also show up for 300, Fast & Furious movies and other content aimed primarily at men.


    In the late 90's, WW did have something of a 'Wonder Family' akin to the Bat Family which consisted of Diana, Hippolyta, Cassie, Donna, Artemis and Helena Sandsmark. Unfortunately in the 00's, DC kept forcing every writer to come up with a new supporting character from each run and what's worse is that they rarely allowed Diana's side kicks to be a part of her own comic, preferring to isolate them to the Titans. Then most of her family ended up in limbo during the Nu52 and despite barely having salvaged the existing WW characters, DC decides to introduce a whole new WG with her own title, something the other WG's (with the exception of Cassie and her brief limited series) never really had to the 'honor' of getting. So yeah, it's a mess but it's been salvaged and it will take a while before all of it makes sense again.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    What exactly was the backlash?
    How Gloria Steinem Saved Wonder Woman

  4. #34
    Astonishing Member CSTowle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I wouldn't call Absorbing Man particularly interesting and the Destroyer isn't a villain so much as it is a tool that is used by villains.
    Yet I can name them. I'd imagine if you polled the average comic fan they could do the same, at least far more of them than could name a non-Cheetah/non-Greek myth Wonder Woman villain. Whatever people are saying about the potential of Wonder Woman's current rogues gallery or their underutilization makes no difference in whether or not they're top-shelf name level villains. They're simply not. Neither, again, is Cheetah. She's just all Wonder Woman has so when they do the big villain get-togethers she's there at the party. But sort of as a formality. Like having a family reunion and having to invite that one cousin who gets too drunk and says things they shouldn't.

    I'm not saying there's anything wrong with Wonder Woman or denigrating Wonder Woman fans when I say this, simply stating the facts as I see them. I think she should have better. But I have no control over that, that's on the writers over at DC.
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    I don't think it's the feminist aspect or the vocal female fan base that holds WW back. My impression has always been that DC always thought that men were their primary target audience and thus they believed that the character wouldn't appeal to them unless they change her somehow. Either by adding more men or a father figure or getting rid of the Amazons. There is also the often misguided sense of what a strong female character is.
    That's not what I'm saying. The female fan base has not been what has held Wonder Woman back. DC's perception of what female readers or at least the Wonder Woman fanbase wants has held Wonder Woman back. Also, their lack of faith that Wonder Woman could appeal to more "mainstream" audiences.

    Also, the mod era of Wonder Woman happened because The Avengers was the most popular TV series at the time, so DC wanted to turn Diana into Emma Peel.
    Last edited by Green Goblin of Sector 2814; 09-27-2021 at 07:28 AM.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by CSTowle View Post
    Yet I can name them. I'd imagine if you polled the average comic fan they could do the same, at least far more of them than could name a non-Cheetah/non-Greek myth Wonder Woman villain. Whatever people are saying about the potential of Wonder Woman's current rogues gallery or their underutilization makes no difference in whether or not they're top-shelf name level villains. They're simply not. Neither, again, is Cheetah. She's just all Wonder Woman has so when they do the big villain get-togethers she's there at the party. But sort of as a formality. Like having a family reunion and having to invite that one cousin who gets too drunk and says things they shouldn't.
    I mean...Dr. Poison, Dr. Cyber, Silver Swan, Devastation, Genocide, Veronica Cale, Giganta, Dr. Psycho, etc. are all WW villains I can name off the top of my head. She has some decent rogues. I wouldn't say that Thor's rogues' gallery is much more diverse or developed than hers.

    Outside of Loki and Malekith, Thor doesn't have that many classically big-name villains. Maybe Gor? But that's a more recent creation and I don't know if that character will stay the test of time the way those other two have.
    Last edited by Green Goblin of Sector 2814; 09-27-2021 at 07:35 AM.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by CSTowle View Post
    Yet I can name them. I'd imagine if you polled the average comic fan they could do the same, at least far more of them than could name a non-Cheetah/non-Greek myth Wonder Woman villain. Whatever people are saying about the potential of Wonder Woman's current rogues gallery or their underutilization makes no difference in whether or not they're top-shelf name level villains. They're simply not. Neither, again, is Cheetah. She's just all Wonder Woman has so when they do the big villain get-togethers she's there at the party. But sort of as a formality. Like having a family reunion and having to invite that one cousin who gets too drunk and says things they shouldn't.

    I'm not saying there's anything wrong with Wonder Woman or denigrating Wonder Woman fans when I say this, simply stating the facts as I see them. I think she should have better. But I have no control over that, that's on the writers over at DC.
    Just because you can't think of any WW villains outside of Cheetah or the Greek gods doesn't mean no one else can.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Goblin of Sector 2814 View Post
    I mean...Dr. Poison, Dr. Cyber, Silver Swan, Devastation, Genocide, Veronica Cale, Dr. Psycho, etc. are all WW villains I can name off the top of my head. She has some decent rogues. I wouldn't say that Thor's rogues' gallery is much more diverse or developed than hers.

    Outside of Loki and Malekith, Thor doesn't have that many classically big-name villains. Maybe Gor? But that's a more recent creation and I don't know if that character will stay the test of time the way those other two have.
    Gor is fairly minor overall IMO, mostly because he's recent. But he also has Enchantress, Ares, Absorbing Man, Wrecker, Hela, Ulik, Norn Queen, Executioner. Is say quite a few of those are more prominent and recurring than a lot of WW's villains

  9. #39
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    Edit - wrong thread. Is there any way to delete a reply?
    Last edited by Lightning63; 09-27-2021 at 02:02 AM.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightning63 View Post
    Guy Gardiner. When a new green lantern project is talked of its always is it Hal or John (or Kyle) but Guy's never mentioned. I couldn't care less about a Hal or John Green Lantern movie. I'd rather see a Guy and Kilowog buddy cop Green Lantern Corps movie instead of just focusing on one lantern.
    I think you're in the wrong thread.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Gor is fairly minor overall IMO, mostly because he's recent. But he also has Enchantress, Ares, Absorbing Man, Wrecker, Hela, Ulik, Norn Queen, Executioner. Is say quite a few of those are more prominent and recurring than a lot of WW's villains
    Nah bro, the only villain there that has appeared in various cartoons is absorbing man. Enchantress and Executioner have appeared in 2 I think, Superhero Squad and Avengers Emh, plus that Hulk vs movie. But by that count Giganta, Ares, and Baroness Paula would have the same amount of prominence.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    Also, her most well known and consistent villain is Cheetah who has appeared in roughly every modern adaptation of Wonder Woman with the exception of Bloodlines and her first live action movie.

    As for her origin, for 70+ years, it has always been that she was sculpted from clay by Hippolyta and given life by the Goddesses. We had one run in 2011 that tried to reinvent her as the daughter Zeus that also made it's way into a movie. Nowadays most writers write around the whole 'daughter of Zeus' or barely reference it at all. They avoid it all together and even the upcoming Historia book avoids is going to use the clay origin for it's continuity. In the vast 80 years of WW's history, the daughter of Zeus idea is the DC equivalent of Spider-Man's clone sage/OMD or that story arc where Marvel revealed that Kang was manipulating throughout his life, villainized him and tried to replace him with a teenage version of Tony from the past. Some writers may reference it but people who understand the character would rather move away from it.
    Cheetah was in bloodliness

  13. #43
    Astonishing Member CSTowle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Just because you can't think of any WW villains outside of Cheetah or the Greek gods doesn't mean no one else can.
    That's what the kids call a strawman, as I never said that and it's a far easier lift to argue against that than what I actually said. That being, your average (not any fan, your average) fan would be hard-pressed to name a non-Cheetah, non-Greek mythology character. That none of her villains are on par as name level villains with Batman or Superman's B-Tier villains.

    There are many reasons for this, and it's not a slight on the character. But to pretend those named above like "Doctor Poison/Cyber/whatever" or "Genocide/Devastator" or the "Silver Swan" are household names is just disingenuous. If you were to go into a busy comic shop or to a convention near the comics and away from the show biz stuff and ask the question I did, "name a WW villain not Cheetah/Greek myth" and had to bet a hundred dollars on the outcome smart money is on them not being able to do so.

    I'm glad she has fans, and I'm glad you guys like the villains she has despite their low profile and lack of general interest. People not sharing your knowledge or interest in no way undermines that. I'm glad it doesn't, I like plenty of obscure characters myself. But we don't have to pretend that's not the case. I grew up loving the Black Panther. Before his movie you'd be hard pressed to find someone who could name a villain outside of Klaw, and that might even be a toss-up question. I wouldn't argue he's above a C-Tier, and he might not make that cut either. But he's arguably BP's main villain.
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  14. #44
    Mighty Member Psy-lock's Avatar
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    I'd say Giganta and Dr Psycho are relatively well known among DC fans. And Dr Poison was in the movie, so she probably is too.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by CSTowle View Post
    That's what the kids call a strawman, as I never said that and it's a far easier lift to argue against that than what I actually said. That being, your average (not any fan, your average) fan would be hard-pressed to name a non-Cheetah, non-Greek mythology character. That none of her villains are on par as name level villains with Batman or Superman's B-Tier villains.
    I find this questionable to say the least when WW villains are not only consistently used in comics but also appear in shows and movies.

    There are many reasons for this, and it's not a slight on the character. But to pretend those named above like "Doctor Poison/Cyber/whatever" or "Genocide/Devastator" or the "Silver Swan" are household names is just disingenuous.
    I think you're the one who is straw manning because no one said those were household names. You seem to be moving the goal posts from "average fan" to "household name on par with Joker and Luthor" to suit your own argument.


    If you were to go into a busy comic shop or to a convention near the comics and away from the show biz stuff and ask the question I did, "name a WW villain not Cheetah/Greek myth" and had to bet a hundred dollars on the outcome smart money is on them not being able to do so.
    See the above. The idea that no one into comics could name a single WW villain outside of Cheetah or the Greek gods is pretty hard to buy if the likes of Absorbing Man or Destroyer are on the tip of a comic fan's tongue. Especially when WW was considerably more well known than Thor even before the movies.

    I'm glad she has fans, and I'm glad you guys like the villains she has despite their low profile and lack of general interest. People not sharing your knowledge or interest in no way undermines that. I'm glad it doesn't, I like plenty of obscure characters myself. But we don't have to pretend that's not the case. I grew up loving the Black Panther. Before his movie you'd be hard pressed to find someone who could name a villain outside of Klaw, and that might even be a toss-up question. I wouldn't argue he's above a C-Tier, and he might not make that cut either. But he's arguably BP's main villain.
    With all due respect, your comments here seem like backhanded compliments at best very much informed by your own bias. There is nothing wrong with you not liking Wonder Woman yourself and that you don't know or care for many of her villains is perfectly fine but you seem to be projecting that onto every other comic book fan.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 09-27-2021 at 07:00 AM.

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