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  1. #31
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CosmiComic View Post
    Yeah. All I'm saying is Star Wars shouldn't abandon the sequel era. Being stuck in the past doesn't really allow for much progress
    I doubt the sequel era will be abandoned. Despite the many mistakes made in TLJ and TRoS, there's a lot of interesting places the setting and characters could go.

    I figure more sequel era content needs to do two things; repair the damage and disrespect done to the original cast, and rebuild the setting (government, Jedi, etc.,) while giving the sequel characters major roles in that growth.

    Those two things can often be achieved simultaneously. Just an idea, but reveal that some of Luke's students survived and have them, Rey, and Finn build a new kind of Jedi order. Maybe Poe plays a major role in building a new government. Stuff like that would not only undo some of the damage done to Luke and Leia by having their hard work continue (in new forms) but it gives the sequel cast central roles in the era and a direct hand in shaping the setting.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisIII View Post
    The last few issues of the Vader comics have been building on ROS's Exegol and Occhi of Bestoon's backstory a great deal.
    I know the comics will use characters from the films and shows, but how tightly connected to canon are they? If the comics say something, is that legit canon? Or is it quasi-canon, only applicable until a film contradicts it?

    I'm still wondering if Bad Batch's and Mandalorian's cloning subplots also somehow are connected to Palpatine's ressurection.
    I suspect so, but I'm not sure why an experiment in cloning would stretch forty-ish years when Palpatine had access to Kamino technology before the Old Republic even fell. Can clones use the Force in the new canon? Maybe that's the problem Palpatine was trying to overcome?
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  2. #32
    Extraordinary Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    Regarding the canon thing, it's pretty much coordinated with Lucasfilm's story group-basically, stuff is canon unless Disney says it isn't (The LEGO stuff, Visions etc, The Old Republic MMO).
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisIII View Post
    Regarding the canon thing, it's pretty much coordinated with Lucasfilm's story group-basically, stuff is canon unless Disney says it isn't (The LEGO stuff, Visions etc, The Old Republic MMO).
    …Or if it gets retconned by an actual movie (see: how TLJ treated Finn and Rey’s characterization, the First Order’s entire set-up, Hux’s characterization, etc., and how TROS in turn treated TLJ).

    That’s why I’m saying that, going forward, they should keep crapping on TLJ and going more towards what worked for TFA especially and TROS incidentally.

    Finn getting more ambitious storytelling and being treated as Rey’s closest friend and only real possible romantic interest? From TFA, so it should be built on.

    Ben Solo being coddled and treated like he’s automatically sympathetic, and that Rey’s connection to him made sense in a human manner? That’s bullshit from TLJ, and should be forgotten; the Dyad poses its own problems, but at least it doesn’t pretend there’s real psychology there.

    Rey looking up to Han as her father figure, and bearing a grudge against Kylo for his death? A good thing from TFA, and arguably something that should be resurrected as an issue that Rey is dealing with now that the Dyad isn’t clouding her mind.

    Luke being useless? That’s TLJ, so screw that.

    Rose, as is, being Finn’s main companion? Already dropped for TROS… and notably easy to realize as seeing complaints more form Tran’s fans as an actress or Reylo fans suddenly scared of a single Finn again, so I’d take the character back to ground zero, and rebuild her to be everything she wasn’t in TLJ; interesting, productive, and someone worth Tran’s time as an actress.
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  4. #34
    Extraordinary Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    The way I see it with the FO is that while the original version was with Hux's father, Sloane etc. Palpatine gained more control by somehow getting Snoke in there as his puppet, and gradually the older FO generation was killed off or displaced by Snoke and co. We see this in the Phasma novel, once Phasma comes aboard she and Hux scheme to off his father (Guy pretty much melts in a bacta tank).
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisIII View Post
    The way I see it with the FO is that while the original version was with Hux's father, Sloane etc. Palpatine gained more control by somehow getting Snoke in there as his puppet, and gradually the older FO generation was killed off or displaced by Snoke and co. We see this in the Phasma novel, once Phasma comes aboard she and Hux scheme to off his father (Guy pretty much melts in a bacta tank).
    That part was actually consistent… and like some other TLJ-adjacent material, far better than the film it was connected to.

    The part that was inconsistent was when the First Order went from being an entirely hidden force of fanatics off in the Unknown Regions to being a pseudo-Separatist movement with dozens of planets in the known Galaxy so that The Last Jedi could try and artificially beef them up so they could take over the entire Galaxy in a matter of weeks, and how Hux went from being a simple but effective no-nonsense military villain more like Piett or Tarkin to a goofball stooge, as well as the general shift from a leaner, meaner First Order into a bloated parody of the Empire’s most pathetic archetypes.

    Two of the more subtle changes that Abrams made in TROS was quietly establishing that the First Order was smaller and more desperate again, then replacing the now comical Hux with Pryde… who, much like Captain Canady from TLJ, is actually interchangeable with TFA Hux in terms fo attitude and functionality. The First Order getting reset into a smaller group was offset by the Final Order’s appearance, but at least Pryde brought back some seriousness to the military story.

    …which is again why I’d argue TLJ should be surreptitiously avoided or recontextualized to fit a better story around it, rather than have stories try to recontextualize the era to accommodate it.
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  6. #36
    Extraordinary Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    I think the main excuse for the First Order taking over things so quickly is that the Republic decided to return to the way it was before the Clone Wars-no major standing army, just the Jedi and the member planet's own militias (Like the one in TPM) or private armies.

    Although they do at least have some kind of fleet consisting of at least a few cruisers and X-wings-we see that in the Mandalorian, and at least some of the Resistance's stuff is from the New Republic (although they also have some Rebellion era ships-Including Leia's old cruiser from ANH which I guess the Empire didn't bother to destroy).
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  7. #37
    Mighty Member Darkgreed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisIII View Post
    I think the main excuse for the First Order taking over things so quickly is that the Republic decided to return to the way it was before the Clone Wars-no major standing army, just the Jedi and the member planet's own militias (Like the one in TPM) or private armies.

    Although they do at least have some kind of fleet consisting of at least a few cruisers and X-wings-we see that in the Mandalorian, and at least some of the Resistance's stuff is from the New Republic (although they also have some Rebellion era ships-Including Leia's old cruiser from ANH which I guess the Empire didn't bother to destroy).
    That was the part i don't believe, What government that was held down by the empire would stay that way once they were gone? all those hundreds of planets thought staying helpless is the best decision? that is what killed me about the new SW movies.

    But if we had to keep going, I'm down let see how we can fix this. Lets do a time jump by 5 years.

    Finn is a Jedi Master and is getting his first padawn.
    Poe is getting a promotion to captain of his own ship. While out on his first mission Poe asked Finn to come see his ship. The Ship gets hijacked by smugglers, while they were off seeing the city.
    Rose will be working as the Republic out post with Beaumont. They are dealing with reports of unrest in the neighboring planets wanting to leave the Republic and join the "True Order" that is rising.
    Rey' son; Leon Skywalker is on a peaceful mission with his master Jedi Knight Jannah, to the Coalition a rising power in the galaxy when an assassination puts all eyes on Leon. Rey and her two students are in the Onum Federation looking to find a young force wielder when Rey feel something dark on the planet, something Sith



    Government Powers:
    True Order- all the planets and people who want the empire to return.
    Soldiers - Storm troopers

    Coalition - Planets that the empire stole most of their resources.
    Soldiers- Droids

    New Republic - The main power in the galaxy, but they are losing power fast
    Soldiers- Ranger

    Onum Federation - 8 wealthy companies have brought their planets and created their own government.
    Soldier - New Clones
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  8. #38
    Extraordinary Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    Funny thing is the New Republic in the old EU is the exact opposite-they not only retain the Rebel Fleet, but they also start eventually building new ships (Since most of the OT Rebel fleet are a mix of privately owned, stolen, stripped down, or outdated ships.)
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  9. #39
    Extraordinary Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    Should add the NR does have a small fleet, but I think it's more for defense and they eventually phased out the more powerful ships as the War with the Empire ended, which the Resistance used during TLJ.
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  10. #40
    Astonishing Member Galerion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CosmiComic View Post
    Why can't there be force users without necessarily being Jedi & Sith. The force is cool but doesn't always have to be tied down to that specific part of the mythos
    While I get what you are saying it does make sense that these two groups are the two main players. Imagine you are some bloke who just discovered that he is force-sensitive. Where do you get the knowledge to explore this power further? Probably at one of the two orders that have thousands of years of knowledge.

    There are definitely groups of force users that are not associated with either of them but they very likely small and need to be hidden. While it isn't canon I remember in the Old Republic MMO you will find a force using Jawa shaman on Tatooine. The Sith in charge asks you to kill him and keep that news from spreading because if people would know that even "primitives" could use the force the standing of the Sith as being the elite and the pinnacle of society would be in danger.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galerion View Post
    While I get what you are saying it does make sense that these two groups are the two main players. Imagine you are some bloke who just discovered that he is force-sensitive. Where do you get the knowledge to explore this power further? Probably at one of the two orders that have thousands of years of knowledge.

    There are definitely groups of force users that are not associated with either of them but they very likely small and need to be hidden. While it isn't canon I remember in the Old Republic MMO you will find a force using Jawa shaman on Tatooine. The Sith in charge asks you to kill him and keep that news from spreading because if people would know that even "primitives" could use the force the standing of the Sith as being the elite and the pinnacle of society would be in danger.
    What you're saying makes sense but it wouldn't hut to at least change things up a bit to make the Force users not always come off as holier than thou

  12. #42
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galerion View Post
    While I get what you are saying it does make sense that these two groups are the two main players. Imagine you are some bloke who just discovered that he is force-sensitive. Where do you get the knowledge to explore this power further? Probably at one of the two orders that have thousands of years of knowledge.
    But much of that knowledge is now gone.

    Palpatine and Vader did their best to wipe everything Jedi out of the galaxy; temples destroyed or lost, records wiped and erased. Much of what was left died with the last remaining Masters. The Sith always kept their secrets close, and with the fall of Exogol I imagine much of their knowledge is lost now too.

    Post-sequels, there's simply nothing and nobody left to learn from. Not even a Master in exile like Yoda. You got Rey, who's not even half trained, and that's it (unless we learn Ashoka or Ezra or someone is still alive). Certainly Rey and her friends will try to rebuild the Jedi Order, and the Sith will likely rise again....but neither organization truly exists anymore and the dregs that remain have little left to offer. Certainly the Jedi will be rebuilt, but it would take generations and generations before they even come close to being what they once were; what's to stop smaller organizations from rising up around the galaxy?
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

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  13. #43
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    That gives opportunity for new organizations to arise and further study the force

  14. #44
    Astonishing Member Galerion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    But much of that knowledge is now gone.

    Palpatine and Vader did their best to wipe everything Jedi out of the galaxy; temples destroyed or lost, records wiped and erased. Much of what was left died with the last remaining Masters. The Sith always kept their secrets close, and with the fall of Exogol I imagine much of their knowledge is lost now too.

    Post-sequels, there's simply nothing and nobody left to learn from. Not even a Master in exile like Yoda. You got Rey, who's not even half trained, and that's it (unless we learn Ashoka or Ezra or someone is still alive). Certainly Rey and her friends will try to rebuild the Jedi Order, and the Sith will likely rise again....but neither organization truly exists anymore and the dregs that remain have little left to offer. Certainly the Jedi will be rebuilt, but it would take generations and generations before they even come close to being what they once were; what's to stop smaller organizations from rising up around the galaxy?
    First I really hate this narrative that nothing exists anymore because that is impossible. We are talking about an entire galaxy here. Something still exists. It may forgotten, buried and possible even dangerous but it could be found. Look how long Obi-Wan and Yoda endured to the knowledge of nobody.

    But obviously what you are saying is totally right. If someone wants knowledge about the Force they will have to work for it really hard. It will be interesting to see how they will handle that going forward. If they do I might add. With this recent push of the High Republic they might be more inclined to go backwards. After all the Old Republic era is probably the most popular era after the movies themselves and they are a lot of things you can do with it. For one you have an actual Sith society with all the Games of Thrones style politics that come with it.

    Also and I know not everybody is a fan of it but Star Wars is often pretty black and white. Either you are light side or you are dark side. Either you serve and respect the Force or you use it as a tool. There is not much wiggle room there. Even a
    gray Jedi like Jolee Bindo was 100% on the light side. He simply didn't believe in the Jedi Order and its leadership. Kinda like being Christian but not supporting the Church and its leadership.
    In the end I think there will always be two sides even if they don't call themselves Jedi and Sith anymore.
    Last edited by Galerion; 01-16-2022 at 05:41 AM.

  15. #45
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galerion View Post
    First I really hate this narrative that nothing exists anymore because that is impossible. We are talking about an entire galaxy here. Something still exists. It may forgotten, buried and possible even dangerous but it could be found. Look how long Obi-Wan and Yoda endured to the knowledge of nobody.
    You're totally right, and I'm sure that if/when we get more post-sequel stories somebody will stumble upon some long-lost relic of the Old Republic and discover knowledge everyone thought was gone forever.

    Hell, with the way they treat Force ghosts you could have Luke and Yoda and all the other dead Jedi come back and teach at a new temple, Hogwarts style. For the record I don't actually support that idea but it's not out of bounds now, the way it would've been years back.

    But no matter how many long-lost elements of the old Orders remain, they're well hidden and those Orders aren't being rebuilt quickly. Which means new/smaller groups have a window to build their relevance....and that might not be the worst thing.

    Also and I know not everybody is a fan of it but Star Wars is often pretty black and white. Either you are light side or you are dark side. Either you serve and respect the Force or you use it as a tool. There is not much wiggle room there.
    I don't think the binary nature of the Force needs to change (I wouldn't want it to), but there's room for organizations with different traditions and philosophies too. We already have a few small bands that do things their own way, like the witches or even the Knights of Ren (who apparently have a different viewpoint than the Sith), and all I'm suggesting is these fringe groups might become more important without a fully functioning Jedi or Sith out there to take all the attention.

    And you're right that the franchise might look back to the High Republic era and leave the sequel era alone...but they're doing stories set in several different times right now so I wouldn't be surprised if they go back to the sequel era before too awful long.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

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