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  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Friendly reminder Oakland Raiders had their stuff BANNED at some school districts because gangs bought them.

    Charlotte Hornets were the top selling NBA merchandise in the 90s. Yet nobody could tell you who was on the team beyond Mugsey, Larry Johnson, Alonzo and Dell Curry.


    Point is when you have a clothing that is attractive-it will attract folks who will NEVER bother to look beyond that symbol. Marketing 101.

    Same folks at the Capital wearing Cap America-would be the same ones throwing FITS about Sam Wilson being Cap America on that show. Never mind he did it 3 times already.

    If Marvel wanted to TROLL those guys-release the time Punisher was BLACK with Luke Cage.
    And friendly reminder that people think that you're entitled to a call when you're arrested, and that undercover cops have to identify themselves.

    Media influences on several levels.

    As for Punisher, he's never presented at in the wrong in any meaningful way, the damage he does is only ever reflected in scumbags and sociopaths and is never examined in a way that doesn't absolve him.

    Maybe it's time to, ya know, start taking a more serious look at that?

  2. #107
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    As for Punisher, he's never presented at in the wrong in any meaningful way, the damage he does is only ever reflected in scumbags and sociopaths and is never examined in a way that doesn't absolve him.
    Frank is frequently shown to be wrong and mentally unwell.

    It's just that he's shown to be that in other people's books, not his own.

    The reason for this is that people who buys Punisher books actually LIKE the character. People that want to see the Punisher shown to be wrong, and treated like crap aren't going to buy a Punisher book because they already don't like the character. People that do buy the book aren't going to like to read a book about how much the character sucks.

    There's no market for books about how absolutely horrible a character is.

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    Frank is frequently shown to be wrong and mentally unwell.

    It's just that he's shown to be that in other people's books, not his own.

    The reason for this is that people who buys Punisher books actually LIKE the character. People that want to see the Punisher shown to be wrong, and treated like crap aren't going to buy a Punisher book because they already don't like the character. People that do buy the book aren't going to like to read a book about how much the character sucks.

    There's no market for books about how absolutely horrible a character is
    .
    Breaking Bad. Constance. Bat-Dick. Injustice. Current X-Force.

    I just think Castle stories need more range than token gestures that he's a bad guy, and all the people he fights eat babies and rape puppies.

  4. #109
    Mighty Member InfamousBG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    Frank is frequently shown to be wrong and mentally unwell.

    It's just that he's shown to be that in other people's books, not his own.

    The reason for this is that people who buys Punisher books actually LIKE the character. People that want to see the Punisher shown to be wrong, and treated like crap aren't going to buy a Punisher book because they already don't like the character. People that do buy the book aren't going to like to read a book about how much the character sucks.

    There's no market for books about how absolutely horrible a character is.
    I just want a good Punisher book to read monthly. That is it!
    "Life is too short so love the one you got cause you might get run over or you might get shot" - Sublime

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    Breaking Bad. Constance. Bat-Dick. Injustice. Current X-Force.

    I just think Castle stories need more range than token gestures that he's a bad guy, and all the people he fights eat babies and rape puppies.
    How many other books do the cast in those books appear in??

    In all those cases you have a variety of people writing those guys.

    So Batman can be an Axxhole in Justice League. However we got him in 50 something books that counter that behavior.

    Frank only had a few times when he was in more than one book. Mainly his own universe.

    Everyone else has zero issue showing him being wrong or crazy.


    People that do buy the book aren't going to like to read a book about how much the character sucks.
    Black Panther, New 52 Static and John Stewart fans would like a WORD....
    With the MANY times they have been harassed or bullied into buying books that trashed those characters.

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    How many other books do the cast in those books appear in??

    In all those cases you have a variety of people writing those guys.

    So Batman can be an Axxhole in Justice League. However we got him in 50 something books that counter that behavior.

    Frank only had a few times when he was in more than one book. Mainly his own universe.

    Everyone else has zero issue showing him being wrong or crazy.




    Black Panther, New 52 Static and John Stewart fans would like a WORD....
    With the MANY times they have been harassed or bullied into buying books that trashed those characters.
    Plenty of books cast shade on their protagonist, to one degree or another. I see no reason why a series that lends itself to noir so well, can't do the same.

  7. #112
    Original CBR member Jabare's Avatar
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    just make this a Punisher appreciation thread at this point
    The J-man

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    Breaking Bad. Constance. Bat-Dick. Injustice. Current X-Force.

    I just think Castle stories need more range than token gestures that he's a bad guy, and all the people he fights eat babies and rape puppies.
    What's Constance?

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    Plenty of books cast shade on their protagonist, to one degree or another. I see no reason why a series that lends itself to noir so well, can't do the same.
    With all due respect, it feels like you're just calling for writers to crap on Frank rather than any nuance. Frank has been called a fascist outright by writers and is frequently compared negatively to other superheroes, even guys like Wolverine who has a way bigger body count than Frank and is a much worse person if you take into account the shady stuff he's been involved with in his very long life.

    What you're asking them to do to Frank is something no fan would want their favorite to go through and you only need to glance at appreciation threads for characters like Batman, Wonder Woman, Roy Harper and Black Panther. It really isn't difficult to find writers who criticize Frank and it feels like you're reading him as if every person who has ever written him is Garth Ennis.

  10. #115
    The Spirits of Vengeance K7P5V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    What's Constance?
    Dunno, maybe they're referring to Constantine from DC Comics?

    Last edited by K7P5V; 10-13-2021 at 03:08 PM. Reason: Corrected Grammatical Errors.

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    With all due respect, it feels like you're just calling for writers to crap on Frank rather than any nuance. Frank has been called a fascist outright by writers and is frequently compared negatively to other superheroes, even guys like Wolverine who has a way bigger body count than Frank and is a much worse person if you take into account the shady stuff he's been involved with in his very long life.

    What you're asking them to do to Frank is something no fan would want their favorite to go through and you only need to glance at appreciation threads for characters like Batman, Wonder Woman, Roy Harper and Black Panther. It really isn't difficult to find writers who criticize Frank and it feels like you're reading him as if every person who has ever written him is Garth Ennis.
    I'm well aware that Ennis isn't the only writer of Frank, but he's certainly the most symptomatic.

    When has any writer actually explored Punisher and the violence he leaves behind, without leaving him an out?

    Simply teaming up with heroes who then scowl at Castle hardly counts, all things considered. God forbid we challenge the reader's sympathy or expectations with Castle, like we do with literally every other character out there.

  12. #117
    ...of the Black Priests Midnight_v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    I'm well aware that Ennis isn't the only writer of Frank, but he's certainly the most symptomatic.

    When has any writer actually explored Punisher and the violence he leaves behind, without leaving him an out?

    Simply teaming up with heroes who then scowl at Castle hardly counts, all things considered. God forbid we challenge the reader's sympathy or expectations with Castle, like we do with literally every other character out there.
    Huh. I'm not the biggest Castle fan, but... I don't buy a comic to get my "sympathies challenged" and likely if I picked up something for entertainment and got a handed a firm proselytizing instead, that would be the end of that experience with that company for me.

    I think people buying that book. I mean actually shelling out bucks not just doing what we do and critiquing it on a forum, are buying it with things in mind. Its probably cathartic for them in ways that we don't identify with or understand like things are for you and I that other people don't understand.

    Myself, I think I matured to a point where I understand that people are going to like things I don't even with all the same information I have. It hurts everybody to try to stop them from enjoying that thing.

    but yeah... They WERE wearing cap shirts during the capitol thing weren't they. Ironic. Everybody things they're the protagonist I guess. Point being it doesn't matter what marvel does or doesn't do in the future with him. Either they love the baseline character. Which to me is kinda PULPY and thus silly, but let him be that he is. Or they'll move on to another symbol and put those same values on it. Cap in this case.

    Marvel has this property. They can use it. or Sit on it. Either way somethings gonna fill that game. FFS it was the Joker "we live in a society" for a while ... I had to look up what the meme was all about. I think they should use it. I'm not buying, but I'm not avoiding it cause I think I know something about the people that do. Let everyone have their cake in relative peace.
    My priority is enjoying and supporting stories of timeless heroism and conflict.
    Everything else is irrelevant.

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    I'm well aware that Ennis isn't the only writer of Frank, but he's certainly the most symptomatic.

    When has any writer actually explored Punisher and the violence he leaves behind, without leaving him an out?
    Mark Millar in Civil War. Joss Whedon in Runaways. A pretty common story in the 90s was the Punisher attacking Spider-Man over a misunderstanding and being proved wrong.

  14. #119
    Mighty Member InfamousBG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    A pretty common story in the 90s was the Punisher attacking Spider-Man over a misunderstanding and being proved wrong.
    I miss stories where the Punisher would attack Spidey over a misunderstanding.
    "Life is too short so love the one you got cause you might get run over or you might get shot" - Sublime

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