The original Inferno

[PyroFN]

i dont like Maddies ABUSE and she is a rapist
Maddie hits Scott.

The last one is valid, but the first two are not.

Madelyne was being mind-controlled by Mastermind into believing she was Dark Phoenix at that point.

[SJNeal]

I recently re-read the entire Inferno saga (maybe a month ago) for the first time in... 20 yrs?

This thread and my bleeding eyes have served to remind me that I need at least another 20 before I crack it open again.

[jmc247]

Sinisters ABUSE on Kid Scott.

I remember that issue. It was the last with the Polmalice entity.

[Mercury]

Go Iceman!

Go Colossus!

Yes, daddy! That Iceman feat was so great.

[Mercury]

From Jean’s perspective, Scott was torturing himself for abandoning a woman who was running around with the X-Men who made no effort to let him know she and the baby were safe. Or even what happened to the baby if it wasn’t safe. That was the “slandering” you are referring to and it wasn’t slandering. Jean literally did have a point, even if some of the details are lost on her. She does eventually feel empathy Madelyne’s point of view in the end. Jean was not being malicious or cold-hearted.

To be clear, Jean didn't "eventually feel empathy" for Madelyne, she felt empathy and expressed consideration for her from the moment she found out about her in X-Factor #8, after discovering that Scott and the rest of the O5 had kept her existence and Scott's marriage to her a secret. This was years before the events that unfolded in the pages you posted and in Inferno.

By the time Jean explodes, she has had to endure and is overwhelmed by so much - her "resurrection," having lost six years of her life, finding out she was cloned by the Phoenix Force, discovering that Scott and the team essentially lied to her about Madelyne, the disappearance of her sister - it's no wonder she admits, "I'm starting to hate all this!" (I mean, who the hell wouldn't.)

She no longer knows who to trust. Christ, with all the attacks she and the team weathered since her return, and all of the adventures she went on with them, she hadn't even been given enough time to properly process her feelings about everything that transpired leading up to and following her return.

X-Factor #8 (I don't think she could have given a more proper and sympathetic first response than she did here):





And that isn't the only scene in which she puts Madelyne before her own feelings. From X-Factor #12:

[cranger]

Empathy is not that rare, maybe decent writing is. Most of those scenes could care less about Maddie or what anyone thought of her though as she was only being brought up just drama for readers wanting Scott and Jean to get back together, Jean and Scott flip flop so much during this period it is a wild rollercoaster.

[Mercury]

Furthermore, in Mephisto vs. X-Factor, though Jean offered her soul to Mephisto to save the O5 and Susan Storm (Invisible Woman), as Mephisto himself tells Scott, she did it primarily to "free [him] from [his] dilemma."

[Mercury]

It really is ridiculous seeing people trying to peg things on Jean that either precipitated or resulted in her getting violated and, in some cases, downright abused. I can recognize when she hasn't been at her best. For example, her reaction to Rachel, though I totally understand the reasoning behind it, still stings, and I think she could have been a little more levelheaded. Then again, I do go back and think about what she was grappling with at the time and chuckle and think to myself, "Bitch, please. You would never be as reasonable and resolved in the same scenario(s). You'd be lighting **** up and flying to the moon in a rage."

[OmegaStorm87]

You could always try not being so thin skinned and overly invested in what people think of a fictional character.

Ultimately, who cares?

[Mercury]

You could always try not being so thin skinned and overly invested in what people think of a fictional character.

Ultimately, who cares?

You do have a point, but I think that's why we're all here, i.e., to share our investments in these characters, stories, and creators with one another. I'm certainly not the only one who gets defensive when someone attacks their favorite character.

[PyroFN]

To be clear, Jean didn't "eventually feel empathy" for Madelyne, she felt empathy and expressed consideration for her from the moment she found out about her in X-Factor #8, after discovering that Scott and the rest of the O5 had kept her existence and Scott's marriage to her a secret. This was years before the events that unfolded in the pages you posted and in Inferno.

By the time Jean explodes, she has had to endure and is overwhelmed by so much - her "resurrection," having lost six years of her life, finding out she was cloned by the Phoenix Force, discovering that Scott and the team essentially lied to her about Madelyne, the disappearance of her sister - it's no wonder she admits, "I'm starting to hate all this!" (I mean, who the hell wouldn't.)

She no longer knows who to trust. Christ, with all the attacks she and the team weathered since her return, and all of the adventures she went on with them, she hadn't even been given enough time to properly process her feelings about everything that transpired leading up to and following her return.

X-Factor #8 (I don't think she could have given a more proper and sympathetic first response than she did here):





And that isn't the only scene in which she puts Madelyne before her own feelings. From X-Factor #12:

You can’t really say Jean always felt empathy though when Jean is clearly spelling out her thoughts on the page. It’s fine for her to have that perspective about Madelyne. Jean is an empathetic person, but she has limits to her patience and capacity for empathizing with an individual.

If Madelyne appears to be on live TV with the X-Men saying good-bye to Scott, Jean has every right to wonder why this woman has not bothered to contact Scott about herself or the baby. We can say Jean felt empathy and changed her mind without making her out as the villain. Jean clearly saw Scott was hurting and was angry at Madelyne for not trying harder to contact him. And for all intents and purpose, she is technically right, since Madelyne does indeed not only have high tech at her disposal even after the X-Men’s supposed “death”. To Jean, if Madelyne meant what she said, she would have tried harder. It’s a valid viewpoint Jean is allowed to have as a person with normal deductive reasoning.

[Mercury]

Anyway, two questions I was hoping those interested would answer are whether they think Madelyne will feature in Hickman's Inferno and whether Hickman will tie his event in any way to the first one.

[PyroFN]

Empathy is not that rare, maybe decent writing is. Most of those scenes could care less about Maddie or what anyone thought of her though as she was only being brought up just drama for readers wanting Scott and Jean to get back together, Jean and Scott flip flop so much during this period it is a wild rollercoaster.

I mean, to be fair, as much as I empathize with Maddie’s story, she was not one of Claremont’s best creations. She is literally to fill in the stories he wanted to tell about Jean, but couldn’t because the results of the Dark Phoenix Saga. Claremont was more angry with how the consequences of Jean’s death are essentially thrown away and how it portrays Scott. Madelyne was never really a character Claremont put so much thought in.

[Mercury]

You can’t really say Jean always felt empathy...

I'm really not doing this anymore after this. Yes, I started this discussion because I was psyched and happy about Jean's behavior during her climactic confrontation with Madelyne, but I was hoping we could tie this discussion to the upcoming Inferno. This is the last I will say about the matter:

In the pages I posted in which she and Scott first really talk about Madelyne, she immediately takes her side and asks Scott, "She's your wife! How can you just walk out on her? How can you abandon your own son?" She admonishes him for leaving her and makes clear she has no intention of getting back together with him.

She thinks of Madelyne again, even though she's preoccupied with having seen her sister for the first time in years on live television, and urges Scott to call her. And yet again considers her, even after her sister's house is bombed and her sister disappears, putting her own soul on the line to save her and the baby for the sake of Scott. And there are several other instances in which she considers Madelyne with empathy and sympathy before, during, and after their final encounter in Inferno.

Now, do I think Jean was wrong for snapping and having enough of it, as they say, during the moments that she did, such as the examples you posted? Absolutely not. She had her own issues to contend with, and the woman, as far as she was concerned, picked up and disappeared with her and Scott's son without telling him anything. She had no idea that Madelyne was undergoing her own troubles.

As I wrote pages back, Jean was considerate of and empathetic towards Madelyne when it most counted: As soon as she found out about her and for a period after, and during Madelyne's darkest moment.

I can't be any clearer than that.

[PyroFN]

I'm really not doing this anymore after this. Yes, I started this discussion because I was psyched and happy about Jean's behavior during her climactic confrontation with Madelyne, but I was hoping we could tie this discussion to the upcoming Inferno. This is the last I will say about the matter:

In the pages I posted in which she and Scott first really talk about Madelyne, she immediately takes her side and asks Scott, "She's your wife! How can you just walk out on her? How can you abandon your own son?" She admonishes him for leaving her and makes clear she has no intention of getting back together with him.

She thinks of Madelyne again, even though she's preoccupied with having seen her sister for the first time in years on live television, and urges Scott to call her. And yet again considers her, even after her sister's house is bombed and her sister disappears, putting her own soul on the line to save her and the baby for the sake of Scott. And there are several other instances in which she considers Madelyne with empathy and sympathy before, during, and after their final encounter in Inferno.

Now, do I think Jean was wrong for snapping and having enough of it, as they say, during the moments that she did, such as the examples you posted? Absolutely not. She had her own issues to contend with, and the woman, as far as she was concerned, picked up and disappeared with her and Scott's son without telling him anything. She had no idea that Madelyne was undergoing her own troubles.

As I wrote pages back, Jean was considerate of and empathetic towards Madelyne when it most counted: As soon as she found out about her and for a period after, and during Madelyne's darkest moment.

I can't be any clearer than that.

Alright. I only said as much because you didn’t really acknowledge the scans. You more or less said Jean was going through stuff without really acknowledging what Jean was saying. It comes off as “Jean was never mad at Madelyne” or “didn’t hold Madelyne responsible for anything that has happened to her”, which would give the wrong impression.

It’s an overreaction from critics who say Jean was horrible to Madelyne as if Jean went on this tirade without giving her an ounce of credit when she did so the things you said. I just wanted to make sure that those scenes were acknowledged for what Jean was actually saying, rather than make excuses for her behavior. I mean, they did contribute, but Jean did have an actual reason to say that about Madelyne. I wanted to ensure that we make it clear to everyone that Jean did say that, she meant what she said at the time, but it shouldn’t be held against her given what we know.

I’m not underscoring what you were posting or anything. Did I explain myself correctly?