JLU Amazo vs What If Ultron

[Jaden Korr]

That is exactly what it was, as we saw with our own eyes. To suggest it has something to do with speed would be the equivalent of saying every giant has super speed because they ate the CN Tower. For someone that size the distwnce isn't that long at all. Doesn't matter how small the watcher is either because Ultron was just eating that part of the Galaxy before shrinking back down.

False equivalency. I am not talking about just being the size of the CN Tower. If they moved quickly at that size it would be more along the lines supersonic or hyper-sonic. Being the size of a galaxy is completely different. If they were the size of a galaxy it's like bazillions of times the speed of light. The only reason Ultron attacked that galaxy was because he was aiming for The Watcher. They were still in the middle of their fight.

You may as well be arguing that Galactus or Pyron from Darkstalkers are mftl because they can grow super big too,

I would provided we can see that they can actually move when they're that size. I mean there's so many things you need here to make use of that size.

Extra sensory abilities and senses far beyond the norm. Neurons that work much faster than normal, or some way for their thoughts to be transmitted at superluminal speed. As since they are the size of galaxies? Their thoughts need someway to be transmitted far more quickly than normal. For reference in human beings their "myelinated neurons that link the spinal cord to the muscles can travel at speeds ranging from 70-120 meters per second (m/s) (156-270 miles per hour[mph]), while signals traveling along the same paths carried by the small-diameter, unmyelinated fibers of the pain receptors travel at speeds ranging from 0.5-2 m/s (1.1-4.4 mph)."

At that size Galactus or Pyron would need extraordinary processing speed, and their thoughts would need to be transmitted at FTL speeds. Otherwise, it would take them forever to do anything. I know Pyron is basically just a giant human-shaped elemental but even he has to think before he can do anything. If it was just something along the lines of 70~120 m/s they wouldn't even be able to function at that size. They would be rendered paralyzed and catatonic.

or the normal human pilot of Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann has mftl reactions because his mech dwarfs galaxies.

This is actually the case for TTGL, and Simon even proceeds to duke it out with the Anti-Spiral after being thrown at him. Normal human beings within the context of TTGL are spiral energy factories, and can warp reality just by willing it. And within that context the crew is exceptional even among them. I mean look at Lord Genome. He's just supposed to be a "normal" human being but due to his spiral power he can do things like survive in the vacuum of outer space, and materialize his mecha through sheer willpower. Before absorbing a big bang, and feeding it to TTGL. Major plot point is that all spiral lifeforms can possibly cause spiral nemesis, and can destroy the universe if allowed to flourish and thrive.

[Cody]

False equivalency.

Not really? Scale is smaller but the point stands that the size will extend reach.

I am not talking about just being the size of the CN Tower. If they moved quickly at that size it would be more along the lines supersonic or hyper-sonic.

Nope, that's the problem there too, it would mean nothing for their speed and if anything would appear slow to us due to their size.

Being the size of a galaxy is completely different.

Not when you're far bigger than said galaxy

If they were the size of a galaxy it's like bazillions of times the speed of light.

Not when their very size extends well beyond it no.

The only reason Ultron attacked that galaxy was because he was aiming for The Watcher. They were still in the middle of their fight.

In a way that the Watcher would have trouble evading due to the massive size of the chomp. It's like an aoe in that way, it has nothing to do with speed.

I would provided we can see that they can actually move when they're that size. I mean there's so many things you need here to make use of that size.

Not when talking about a fictional setting featuring characters who ignore the laws of physics by virtue of their powers allowing them to bypass said laws, as well as reality itself. Like, there are a lot of things from Marvel and DC that ignore how real world science and human capabilities work.

Extra sensory abilities and senses far beyond the norm. Neurons that work much faster than normal, or some way for their thoughts to be transmitted at superluminal speed. As since they are the size of galaxies? Their thoughts need someway to be transmitted far more quickly than normal. For reference in human beings their "myelinated neurons that link the spinal cord to the muscles can travel at speeds ranging from 70-120 meters per second (m/s) (156-270 miles per hour[mph]), while signals traveling along the same paths carried by the small-diameter, unmyelinated fibers of the pain receptors travel at speeds ranging from 0.5-2 m/s (1.1-4.4 mph)."

And here is the problem again; you're implying that a setting that routinely ignores how real world science works(or pick and chooses when to apply it) are even following this train of thought, especially with characters who have abilities that allow them to manipulate reality to how they see fit.

In comics, just being big is the reason given really. Not speed.

At that size Galactus or Pyron would need extraordinary processing speed, and their thoughts would need to be transmitted at FTL speeds. Otherwise, it would take them forever to do anything. I know Pyron is basically just a giant human-shaped elemental but even he has to think before he can do anything. If it was just something along the lines of 70~120 m/s they wouldn't even be able to function at that size. They would be rendered paralyzed and catatonic.

Nope again, because they have consistently shown to have no speed at that level whatsoever. Galactus doesn't need it, let alone ever showed it in hos entire existence, while Pyron is no faster than anyone else in Darkstalkers. You would have to ignore each and every single last one of their appearances to argue that they are mftl based solely on hard science that the writer's would have to know and care about to implement.

This is actually the case for TTGL, and Simon even proceeds to duke it out with the Anti-Spiral after being thrown at him. Normal human beings within the context of TTGL are spiral energy factories, and can warp reality just by willing it. And within that context the crew is exceptional even among them. I mean look at Lord Genome. He's just supposed to be a "normal" human being but due to his spiral power he can do things like survive in the vacuum of outer space, and materialize his mecha through sheer willpower. Before absorbing a big bang, and feeding it to TTGL. Major plot point is that all spiral lifeforms can possibly cause spiral nemesis, and can destroy the universe if allowed to flourish and thrive.

And this proves my point; that they are not even remotely close to having any form of superspeed, yet their mechs can do all that. You would have to ignore the fact that outside of their mechs they are consistently presented, and shown, as radically below any form of superspeed known in fiction, yet somehow they are mftl in reactions while in their mechs? Sorry, but it ks very clear that the writers just didn't think about the speed required here, and unless they have shown a form of high level superspeed, or at least have been stated as such, you cannot assume they are mftl based on hard science that few writers would even care to look up.

Especially in this context involving a guy who can manipulate reality, in which case he can literally give any sort of scientific law a giant middle finger and do what he wants.

[Jaden Korr]

Not really? Scale is smaller but the point stands that the size will extend reach.

The size will most definitely not boost their speed. As I already noted they would be immobile, and incapable of doing anything at that size otherwise.

Nope, that's the problem there too, it would mean nothing for their speed and if anything would appear slow to us due to their size.

Nope, I am talking about when it appears that they're moving normally or quickly even when they're that size. Straw man on your part here.

Not when you're far bigger than said galaxy

That would make them even faster here, and most definitely they would require some measure of super-speed to move at all.

Not when their very size extends well beyond it no.

Not when they are actually shown to be able to move at all, no. They are not doing these things via extension. They're not shape-shifting to move. They're moving after they shape-shifted to a ginormous level.

In a way that the Watcher would have trouble evading due to the massive size of the chomp. It's like an aoe in that way, it has nothing to do with speed.

It does when Ultron needs to know where The Watcher actually is, and he needs to know which galaxy he needs to chomp down on. More importantly, he can't move at all without superhuman speed here.

Not when talking about a fictional setting featuring characters who ignore the laws of physics by virtue of their powers allowing them to bypass said laws, as well as reality itself. Like, there are a lot of things from Marvel and DC that ignore how real world science and human capabilities work.

This is not just ignoring real world science and human capabilities. It's ignoring how movement even works. By that same logic I can just say since they're reality warpers they can just be whatever speed they want to be. That's the problem when you throw out all the rules, and just start applying your own. In order to better rationalize it for yourself but not in any way that actually makes sense. Then nothing is concrete, and you can make up whatever rules you want.

And here is the problem again; you're implying that a setting that routinely ignores how real world science works(or pick and chooses when to apply it) are even following this train of thought, especially with characters who have abilities that allow them to manipulate reality to how they see fit.

By your same logic since they can do whatever they want by reality warping? Then they can also just be as fast as they want to be. We even see Lord Genome react to said big bang blast which was definitely FTL, and absorb it for TTGL. Before transforming into a giant drill with a head attached to it.

In comics, just being big is the reason given really. Not speed.

Nope, that would be an interpretation of it in your case. And you dictating what is and isn't as if you're the supreme authority on it.

This is a debate forum so? Debate. Where is that explained for Ultron here specifically? And I am not talking about anyone else. I am talking about Ultron in specific for this particular "What If" series in the MCU.

Nope again, because they have consistently shown to have no speed at that level whatsoever. Galactus doesn't need it, let alone ever showed it in hos entire existence, while Pyron is no faster than anyone else in Darkstalkers.

Easily two possibilities here. It's either PIS that anyone can fight Pyron, or they simply scale to him. This is fiction, and anything can happen by your own admission but for some reason FTL movement is where you draw the line regarding how unrealistic it is? When you just told me you think no science or common sense applies? Your argument here goes both ways, and shoots itself in the foot.

You would have to ignore each and every single last one of their appearances to argue that they are mftl based solely on hard science that the writer's would have to know and care about to implement.

You would have to ignore that they're reality warpers who can do whatever they want when they need to. Spiral energy is situational, and something they actually have to conjure into being through moments of distress or emotion. They're not always this powerful.

And this proves my point; that they are not even remotely close to having any form of superspeed, yet their mechs can do all that.

Simon is literally able to keep up with himself being thrown at FTL speeds, and punch the Anti-Spiral in the face the moment they make contact.

You would have to ignore the fact that outside of their mechs they are consistently presented, and shown, as radically below any form of superspeed known in fiction,

In that very same instance Simon ignores gazillions of gravities that would result from said acceleration, and immediately punches the Anti-Spiral instead of just crashing into him. After which he beats up a ludicrously powerful reality warper with his bare hands.

yet somehow they are mftl in reactions while in their mechs?

They literally have no choice but have them since they're actually fighting whilst inside said mechs. This isn't them traveling anywhere. This is in combat. Also, note the above where I point that your own logic shoots itself in the foot. If they can warp reality, do whatever they want, and ignore all the rules? Why can't they be FTL? Just because you are in disbelief of something like FTL movement? When you just finished saying you don't believe in science or common sense in fiction. This line of reasoning contradicts itself.

Sorry, but it ks very clear that the writers just didn't think about the speed required here,

Citation need. Go ask the writers. You can't argue author intent unless you are the author. That would be you trying to dictate the rules regarding it as you are the supreme authority on it.

When you're not, and even then writers are not always reliable. They can have brain farts, and make mistakes just like anyone else. Good example is Mass Effect where they flummoxed their math regarding mass accelerators, and a fan had to correct their numbers. After which they changed it for Mass Effect 2.

and unless they have shown a form of high level superspeed, or at least have been stated as such, you cannot assume they are mftl based on hard science that few writers would even care to look up.

You're the one assuming the writer's intent here. I am just going by what the feat would actually require. As you just made a positive claim? I would like you to ask one of the writers for TTGL if that was their intent or lack of intent.

Especially in this context involving a guy who can manipulate reality, in which case he can literally give any sort of scientific law a giant middle finger and do what he wants.

By that same exact logic they can just be however fast they want to be. Depending on how much spiral energy they have at their disposal, and when they conjure it up. We see that this is not their default, and they need to actually summon it through moments of desperation.

[Cody]

Ignoring your misuse of the term "strawman", at this point you're just repeating the same things that I already addressed. You are the one putting in hard science that contradict every. Single. Last.Showing and appearance of these characters, just to come to a conclusion that you like. Doesn't work that way I'm afraid. It simply means the writers hadn't a clue of the implication there.

In order for any of these characters to have the speed you would want them to have, you would then need to explain why they never show that level of speed and why every time they don't move that fast is somehow more inconsistent than the idea that they are much, much, much faster than their presentation and consistent showings.

[Jaden Korr]

Ignoring your misuse of the term "strawman", at this point you're just repeating the same things that I already addressed. You are the one putting in hard science that contradict every. Single. Last.Showing and appearance of these characters, just to come to a conclusion that you like. Doesn't work that way I'm afraid. It simply means the writers hadn't a clue of the implication there.

Obviously, in fiction you can only pick and choose which makes sense or not. According to common sense. Not everything is going to be followed strictly. That's the problem with fiction. I also wasn't misusing the term "straw man." I was on point regarding that. Also, that's literally what you are doing. Picking and choosing what is acceptable in order to get the conclusion that you like. You are arguing against a mirror right now, buddy.

In order for any of these characters to have the speed you would want them to have, you would then need to explain why they never show that level of speed and why every time they don't move that fast is somehow more inconsistent than the idea that they are much, much, much faster than their presentation and consistent showings.

In fiction characters are never always moving as fast as they can for a myriad of reasons. Either due to budget, in order to allow the audience to see what is happening (a show where everything is invisible isn't exactly riveting), PIS, CIS, or even simply due to the fact their power fluctuates. The last one being the case here. As in TTGL spiral energy changes according to levels of willpower and emotion, and there's some energy absorption involved too in this fight. It's dynamic, and situational. It's why Simon can duke it out with the Anti-Spiral but still end up aging into an old man later.

[Cody]

Obviously, in fiction you can only pick and choose which makes sense or not. According to common sense.

Common sense should tell you that using hard science to make up feats that go against every single last showing and presentation means the writers weren't thinking as hard about it as you are.

Ialso wasn't misusing the term "straw man." I was on point regarding that.

How do you figure?

Also, that's literally what you are doing. Picking and choosing what is acceptable in order to get the conclusion that you like. You are arguing against a mirror right now, buddy.

I haven't been using hard science here so, no? I'm just going by what we actually see. You're splitting hairs to wank feats.

In fiction characters are never always moving as fast as they can for a myriad of reasons. Either due to budget, in order to allow the audience to see what is happening (a show where everything is invisible isn't exactly riveting), PIS, CIS, or even simply due to the fact their power fluctuates.

Which is why we go by high end feats consistent with character presentation here, as per board rules.

The last one being the case here. As in TTGL spiral energy changes according to levels of willpower and emotion, and there's some energy absorption involved too in this fight. It's dynamic, and situational. It's why Simon can duke it out with the Anti-Spiral but still end up aging into an old man later.

So in other words being mftl is not even remotely consistent with presentation or feats of the characters, got it.

[Jaden Korr]

Common sense should tell you that using hard science to make up feats that go against every single last showing and presentation means the writers weren't thinking as hard about it as you are.

So, instead you apply arbitrary meanings to feats instead of trying to quantify them? That appeal to your particular narrative, and fit into your head-canon? That's even worse than what I am doing. At least I am trying to get a sense of the scale. You just want to make up your own.

How do you figure?

Besides the fact we clearly see that they're not immobile? You don't understand the difference in scale here. They wouldn't just be slow. They would be statues according to you.

I haven't been using hard science here so, no? I'm just going by what we actually see. You're splitting hairs to wank feats.

How in the world is it "wank?" You're watching the same thing I am, right? You see all that ridiculous nonsense, and think my claims are unusual? This is like saying it's wank that a character can destroy a planet because they never did it. When they have destroyed a universe. My claim is benign by comparison.

Which is why we go by high end feats consistent with character presentation here, as per board rules.

And the high-end feats when they're going all out here shows that they're massively FTL. When in these particular situations.

So in other words being mftl is not even remotely consistent with presentation or feats of the characters, got it.

Me: "Spiral energy is reliant on the willpower and emotion of those who generate it. And it can draw in more energy and power from its surroundings. Therefore it changes dependent on the situation."

You: "That means they're inconsistent in portrayal, and it's an outlier!"

This is like ignoring that the Hulk becomes stronger the angrier he gets, and saying any feats beyond his average are outliers. His power-set is defined as being dynamic. Which means it changes according to something. It's not that it's inconsistent. It's that it changes by definition.

[Cronus]

WI Ultron's size mitigated the vast distance of the galaxy when he bit into it. Relative to a normal sized being, that movement would be FTL, sure. Relative to Ultron, given the size he was at the time, doesn't make Ultron FTL. His size increase would have been a component of the reality gem not the space gem right? Conversely, for example, we would have to say the Fantastic Four all have FTL speed given all the things they have done in the microverse, given that all the planets they were on were all subatomic. As well, Ultron (or the Watcher for that matter) no more demonstrated FTL speed by fighting through dimensions than someone demonstrates hypersonic reflexes because they had a fight on a plane that was moving at supersonic speeds.

Having said all that, could WI Ultron have FTL speed? I don't see why not. I imagine he has to consciously tap into the power of the space gem first though. I imagine this takes place at relatively normal speeds.

Can we assume Amazo Gold has telepathy? J'onn was a member of this version of the JL, so sure? What were Flash's best reaction feats in JLU? Despite Amazo Gold's inherent ability to replicate all the powers of the JL, his teleporting OA from one dimension to the next as casually as he did, suggests a level of power well beyond the Amazo we see in the comics. Would this put him in the skyfather range? Does this carry over to how well he employs telepathy or super speed? IDK...a lot of "what ifs" (yes, pun intended) for Amazo.

If Amazo Gold can quick draw a quick mind control, he should win. If Ultron bounces it because he's just that powerful, then Amazo is done.

[Sophicles]

WI Ultron's size mitigated the vast distance of the galaxy when he bit into it. Relative to a normal sized being, that movement would be FTL, sure. Relative to Ultron, given the size he was at the time, doesn't make Ultron FTL. His size increase would have been a component of the reality gem not the space gem right? Conversely, for example, we would have to say the Fantastic Four all have FTL speed given all the things they have done in the microverse, given that all the planets they were on were all subatomic. As well, Ultron (or the Watcher for that matter) no more demonstrated FTL speed by fighting through dimensions than someone demonstrates hypersonic reflexes because they had a fight on a plane that was moving at supersonic speeds.

Having said all that, could WI Ultron have FTL speed? I don't see why not. I imagine he has to consciously tap into the power of the space gem first though. I imagine this takes place at relatively normal speeds.

Can we assume Amazo Gold has telepathy? J'onn was a member of this version of the JL, so sure? What were Flash's best reaction feats in JLU? Despite Amazo Gold's inherent ability to replicate all the powers of the JL, his teleporting OA from one dimension to the next as casually as he did, suggests a level of power well beyond the Amazo we see in the comics. Would this put him in the skyfather range? Does this carry over to how well he employs telepathy or super speed? IDK...a lot of "what ifs" (yes, pun intended) for Amazo.

If Amazo Gold can quick draw a quick mind control, he should win. If Ultron bounces it because he's just that powerful, then Amazo is done.

How would telepathy work on computer code? Ultron is just super advanced AI that's given additional sentience by the Mind Stone. Using telepathy on Ultron would essentially be using telepathy on the Mind Stone itself, since it's what's giving making the AI actually be "alive" and more than just Tony Stark's programming.

[Jaden Korr]

How would telepathy work on computer code? Ultron is just super advanced AI that's given additional sentience by the Mind Stone. Using telepathy on Ultron would essentially be using telepathy on the Mind Stone itself, since it's what's giving making the AI actually be "alive" and more than just Tony Stark's programming.

And he also has a measure of cosmic awareness. Unlike the other people who used the Infinity Stones in the MCU this even extends to other universes. A telepath may very well fry their brains attempting to process anything in his head. Since the information intake here would be ridiculous.

[Twickster]

Amazo has no feats of offensive telepathy anyway, so that settles that line of attack.

[big_adventure]

MCU Vibranium has never been shown to be resistant to phasing (in fact, White Vision and Fake Vision phase through each other in Scarket Witch just fine) and we cannot just handwave Ultron somehow being more resistant to having the stones taken than anyone else because he ‘mastered it’.

https://youtu.be/8ZvC3yhiME0

We clearly see the non-Stone empowered White Vision phasing into Fake Vision just fine (a mind Stone creation), and the same the other way too.

No reason why Ultron would be able to stop phasing.

Didn't say he could stop phasing, actually. I did say that stealing an infinity stone using phasing from Ultron is very different from doing something similar to something massively less durable.

And the two not-really Visions don't really apply compared to... Infinity Ultron.

[Cleric of Hell’s Brigade]

Didn't say he could stop phasing, actually. I did say that stealing an infinity stone using phasing from Ultron is very different from doing something similar to something massively less durable.

And the two not-really Visions don't really apply compared to... Infinity Ultron.

But it’s not.

MCU vibranium doesn’t have any feats that make it more resistant to phasing than anything else. Actually, we see MCU Vibranium fail against various things several times (Cap’s shield vs Thanos, Vision vs Corvus Glaive).

There is nothing that states Infinity Ultron has some sort of amped resistance to this.

[Cronus]

How would telepathy work on computer code? Ultron is just super advanced AI that's given additional sentience by the Mind Stone. Using telepathy on Ultron would essentially be using telepathy on the Mind Stone itself, since it's what's giving making the AI actually be "alive" and more than just Tony Stark's programming.

...

Actually, this is one of the questions I failed to ask. Also, this:

Amazo has no feats of offensive telepathy anyway, so that settles that line of attack.

So that settles that then.

Looks like WI Ultron wins this in a stomp then.

[Slade1]

Agreed JLU Amazo loses. A better match would be comic Amazo.