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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisIII View Post
    I think in the original plan Episode VI was going to be a lot darker-Han would die, Vader would die but the Rebellion would still be in a bad place at the end.

    Kind of fits with what Yoda said in ESB about Luke rescuing Han and Leia would destroy all for what they fought for.
    That sounds vaguely familiar...might've seen something about that in an old magazine maybe.

    I know the original draft of New Hope was novelized (12 year old me loved it), but have any of the other original drafts? I feel like that'd be something worth reading.

    Quote Originally Posted by CosmiComic View Post
    Rian Johnson doing what he wanted and not working out doesn't preclude anyone else
    I mean, we live in a world where it occasionally rains fish, so nothing is impossible, and there are times when a creator has gone against the grain and it's turned out well. And there are times when things have already gone bad and need that kind of shift (Star Wars was sorta in that spot after the prequels, which is part of why TFA was so nostalgic; to course correct). You're not "wrong" in that it can "sometimes" work. But just because the gamble *occasionally* pays off, or is even warranted, does not mean it is always good (or smart) business.

    I dunno man. I don't find your argument of "it *could* be good!" to be terribly compelling. I'm in here with personal experience, Jon frikkin Favreau, and I could dig out some college texts about creative industries for more citations and studies (you think I came to these conclusions all on my own? I'm largely just repeating smarter, more experienced people and my one big personal lesson ). You hold whatever opinion you like my friend, but believing a thing doesn't make it true, and talking about audience expectations and how that impacts a product is entering the business end of the spectrum, where things are a bit more objective and quantifiable. Unless you got some quality sources to back your argument up, I'd rather just get back to talking about whether Jedi can or should have relationships.

    Someone here seemed to like the idea of the next Skywalker (if there were one) not being able to use the Force. Didn't think that would impress anyone, but y'all think it could actually work?
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  2. #92
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    I mean, personally I don't fin your argument of her needing to be a Skywalker to win the audience to be at all compelling. My point is one guy failing doesn't equal everyone else potentially failing as well, which is a reasonable opinion. I don't get where audiences are demanding or preferring she be a Skywalker

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by CosmiComic View Post
    I mean, personally I don't fin your argument of her needing to be a Skywalker to win the audience to be at all compelling. My point is one guy failing doesn't equal everyone else potentially failing as well, which is a reasonable opinion. I don't get where audiences are demanding or preferring she be a Skywalker
    I’d say the way half the audience drifted away before the ST was over, Rey’s popularity taking a nosedive, and so many people backing up Kylo for no reason beyond his heritage or demographic would illustrate that last point rather effectively. The fact that Rey Skywalker was also at minimum a strong favorite as a plurality, if not a majority, of speculation would also tie the idea in.

    People stopped caring about this random girl who was just dropping into someone else’s story without a place even before Rian Johnson pimped her out because of his own Skywalker obsession - at least a few hundred thousand probably grew apathetic off spoilers of “just a random girl.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    That sounds vaguely familiar...might've seen something about that in an old magazine maybe.

    I know the original draft of New Hope was novelized (12 year old me loved it), but have any of the other original drafts? I feel like that'd be something worth reading.



    I mean, we live in a world where it occasionally rains fish, so nothing is impossible, and there are times when a creator has gone against the grain and it's turned out well. And there are times when things have already gone bad and need that kind of shift (Star Wars was sorta in that spot after the prequels, which is part of why TFA was so nostalgic; to course correct). You're not "wrong" in that it can "sometimes" work. But just because the gamble *occasionally* pays off, or is even warranted, does not mean it is always good (or smart) business.

    I dunno man. I don't find your argument of "it *could* be good!" to be terribly compelling. I'm in here with personal experience, Jon frikkin Favreau, and I could dig out some college texts about creative industries for more citations and studies (you think I came to these conclusions all on my own? I'm largely just repeating smarter, more experienced people and my one big personal lesson ). You hold whatever opinion you like my friend, but believing a thing doesn't make it true, and talking about audience expectations and how that impacts a product is entering the business end of the spectrum, where things are a bit more objective and quantifiable. Unless you got some quality sources to back your argument up, I'd rather just get back to talking about whether Jedi can or should have relationships.

    Someone here seemed to like the idea of the next Skywalker (if there were one) not being able to use the Force. Didn't think that would impress anyone, but y'all think it could actually work?
    I think it could at least give people something more satisfying for the family story - especially if it was revealed that somehow this kid owed their survival to the heroes of the ST, like if they were rescued by Rey or Finn, and some clear tie was made between the actions of the family against Palpatine was paid forward in at least someone in their family being “freed” of the entire mess.

    To move this back to the Jedi..

    Does anyone here also think that the Disney era should adopt the way the old Legends continuity handled the “no attachments” rule?

    Since Lucas took until AOTC to actually create the idea, the old comics and books were caught flat footed with a lot of Jedi, both ancient and modern, already hitched and treated as romantic beings… and eventually, they decided to settle on using some real-world parallels and extrapolations from ROTJ to portray the “no attachments” rule as belonging primarily to an over-reacting and dogma-heavy Old Jedi Order that the New a Jedi Order rescinded and that had Millenials before been a major point of debate that wasn’t settled at all.

    Like, I get the philosophical reasoning behind the idea… but most of the spiritual and philosophical objections to unhealthy attachments are just as countered by healthy relationships as they are by denial, and quite frankly, I think most creators would rather be able to ditch the “forbidden romance” angle whenever they decide to try romance for a Jedi rather than have to constantly bring it up or obfuscate things to avoid triggering lore hounds.
    Last edited by godisawesome; 10-17-2021 at 08:38 PM.
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  4. #94
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    They stopped caring because she wasn't well written, not because she wasn't a Skywalker. Her magically being a Skywalker doesn't fix anything

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by CosmiComic View Post
    I mean, personally I don't fin your argument of her needing to be a Skywalker to win the audience to be at all compelling. My point is one guy failing doesn't equal everyone else potentially failing as well, which is a reasonable opinion. I don't get where audiences are demanding or preferring she be a Skywalker
    I think we're talking about two different things my man.

    I'm not saying Rey *had* to be a Skywalker. Not talking about her at all really. What I'm talking about isn't any one particular thing, but the care and craft a creator needs to apply to a entire work, and the awareness of how audiences might react to it.

    Lemme break it down this way. We all know, basically, what a Batman story looks like. We know what kind of tone and atmosphere to expect, we know, roughly, what kind of themes will be in play, etc. There will be twists and turns but in a general sense, we know what we're getting. A creator *can* change stuff around and go against those expectations, and indeed there are instances where that is a desirable thing. But that creator has to decide what expectations to subvert and which to lean into, and craft those twists and surprises in a way that leaves the story still feeling like Batman.

    Even something like the Brave & the Bold cartoon was acutely aware of where and how it subverted expectations. And it worked fine because it knew where it could break from the mold and where it could go in a different direction without losing the audience along the way.

    But that's not what happened with the sequel trilogy. That seemed to just be a bunch of "I'll do what I want whether it makes sense within the story or not and fans can suck it!" What we got there would be like if we watched a "typical" Batman movie that was dark and brooding like we expect, and ended with Batman and Joker running at each other, ready to fight. And then the next film picked up right where the first left off but everything was in bright pastel colors and instead of fighting, Joker revealed that he was really Gwen Stacy all along, and then he and Batman break into a song before taking Joker's dream-powered moon ship to outer space because they're late for Santa's birthday. And maybe a trip to outer space to celebrate Santa's birthday sounds like a cool story. But it neither fits the Batman film that came before it, nor the character in a larger, more general sense.

    If you're working on a story, especially one that isn't yours and already has forty years' worth of fans, and you just ignore what those fans want (and the story that immediately preceded you) so you can do your own thing? You deserve to fail.

    And this mindset of being aware of your audience? That's largely not subjective opinion (art is alchemy, not science, so there's always flexibility but the business that pays for this stuff has firmer rules behind it). That's backed up by lots of market research and the personal experiences and philosophy of a whole lot of successful creators, and the guys behind them who pay the bills. Bottom line; when you get hired to write Batman (or Star Wars) you write Batman (or Star Wars) the way the thing is meant to be written. If you wanna go off and do your own thing with no regard to precedent or audience expectation, you do something new and creator owned.

    Not sure how you ended up thinking I was speaking of Rey specifically, but apologies for not being clearer. Whether you agree or not I hope this clarified what I was talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Does anyone here also think that the Disney era should adopt the way the old Legends continuity handled the “no attachments” rule?
    I think it's probably for the best if we say that this was a point of contention within the Old Order, and the new Order is less dogmatic and allows its members to do what is best for them, and whatever helps them follow the path of the Force best.

    I think it's actually real important that the next Jedi Order not be a copy of the old; if all Luke (and Rey) do is rebuild the Order (largely) as it was, then there was no point to Anakin destroying it and the Force isn't truly balanced. I don't know what the next Order looks like, but I know that it needs to be very different, less removed from the average person, less steeped in superstition and ritual and religion.

    If Luke's exile is to have any worth and not just be Luke spending years sulking like a bitch, then his "the Force does not belong to the Jedi" line needs to be relevant. He was wrong about the Jedi not needing to exist at all and he admits as much in the films, but that doesn't mean he's also wrong about the Jedi's monopoly on Force users being bad. So maybe it's best if Jedi going forward can pursue whatever path brings them closer to the Force and enlightenment, and their fellow Jedi can be there to help keep them on that path....not dictate what their path looks like. And there should be other groups, separate from the Jedi, finding their own way.
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  6. #96
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    I still don't buy your argument. Rey isn't a pre-existing character. She's not Batman or Superman. The audience wasn't saying "Darn, she's not a Skywalker." You're comparing two different things here

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by CosmiComic View Post
    I still don't buy your argument. Rey isn't a pre-existing character. She's not Batman or Superman. The audience wasn't saying "Darn, she's not a Skywalker." You're comparing two different things here
    Yeah, the thought that she might be a Skywalker was actually a negative for me, and I thought the Palpatine connection was even worse.
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  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by CosmiComic View Post
    I still don't buy your argument. Rey isn't a pre-existing character. She's not Batman or Superman. The audience wasn't saying "Darn, she's not a Skywalker." You're comparing two different things here
    You're missing the point. I'm not talking about Rey. Her parentage is a non-issue here, beyond being one example among many of how the sequels bounced around with no real direction, consistency, or plan. Remove Rey from the story completely and it doesn't change what I'm saying. Just forget she exists.

    It's about crafting a work your established fans want to see and will pay you for. Rey is a new character. Star Wars is not; there are expectations and assumptions and demands upon the franchise whether the cast is new or old, and ignoring those is bad from both a creative and business standpoint.

    In any case, like I said, I'd rather talk about the subject of the thread. I have actual citations on my side of our debate and actual business studies and rationale. Unless you can bring something to support your argument I'd like to just agree to disagree and move on to talking about whether Jedi can or should get their freak on.
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  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by CosmiComic View Post
    They stopped caring because she wasn't well written, not because she wasn't a Skywalker. Her magically being a Skywalker doesn't fix anything
    And she wasn’t well written because once Johnson decided she wasn’t a Skywalker, he and LFL stopped caring about her, just like how many other people definitely *did* stop caring based off that as well - it simply was aggravated into a perpetual cycle of sucktitude by the bad writing it would naturally cause as well.

    Again, it didn’t *have* to happen - and I’d argue that Abrams actually shows that, since she clearly *did* care about her more than Johnson or LFL did.

    But if being a. Skywalker didn’t matter, Kylo Ren wouldn’t have anywhere near the fans he has - because the only thing he has going for him is Adam Driver’s sex appeal and the character parentage. In TFA, Driver’s skills mattered, but afterwards, all that mattered was how good Driver’s hair looked and that his real last name was Solo.

    Johnson, LFL, and about half-the audience’s subconscious betrayed them… unless they were those who were conscious about it and just didn’t care.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    You're missing the point. I'm not talking about Rey. Her parentage is a non-issue here, beyond being one example among many of how the sequels bounced around with no real direction, consistency, or plan. Remove Rey from the story completely and it doesn't change what I'm saying. Just forget she exists.
    This what I’m arguing people are ignoring - that it’s not so much a question of Rey’s parentage as much as it’s a question of the family story across several films.

    The reason why Rey “should” have been a Skywalker has much more to do with the simple fact that you don’t want her story in “competition” with the family story, because almost any ignorant creator will immediately start sacrificing her characterizing and story for the sake of the family story.

    Hell, I’m convinced that half the people who claim they would be out off of Rey if she were a Skywalker are voicing an opinion that simply wouldn’t exist if she were one anyway - largely because that option suddenly doesn’t matter when it comes to Kylo.

    People overlook how much the family story immediately determines how they view the story and characters.
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  10. #100
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    She wouldn't have been better written just by becoming a Skywalker. You keep talking about audience subconscious but that's probably not as big of a deal as you're making it out to be

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    Quote Originally Posted by CosmiComic View Post
    She wouldn't have been better written just by becoming a Skywalker. You keep talking about audience subconscious but that's probably not as big of a deal as you're making it out to be
    You’re 100% correct that the family tie wouldn’t guarantee Rey being written well, but it’s not the audience’s subconscious I’m talking about here - I'm talking about guys like Rian Johnson himself, Pablo Hidalgo, Jason Fry, Kathleen Kennedy, etc.

    I respect all those people in most stuff they deal with, but it’s clear all of them stopped caring about Rey and running straight towards Kylo and Luke instead because of the family story, and it continued to plague the story after TLJ - they seemed to fire Trevorrow more because he couldn’t give them the heroic story they wanted for Ben rather than anything else.

    That kind of myopic focus isn’t healthy… but at least it would make more sense for the main freakin’ character.

    And it would likely also provide a massive cover for the character much like it did for Kylo, which would likely lead to fewer people abandoning the films, and more people wanting more stuff with Rey - as well as likely killing the “Mary Sue” bullshit she gets. It’s unsettling how few people raised up a single issue with Kylo becoming a black hole at the center of the story - likely because he was a Skywalker - and how few people have a problem with Anakin or Luke doing over-powered shit, just because the lore accommodates it.

    Now, none of that is any guarantee of quality… but it’s at least a guarantee of LFL not showing their heads up their ass about Kylo alone, and likely increases support for Rey - among men and women, because let’s not pretend like women would have felt betrayed by getting a female Skywalker lead.
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  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    This what I’m arguing people are ignoring - that it’s not so much a question of Rey’s parentage as much as it’s a question of the family story across several films.
    I agree it's risky to stack a new main character up against the Skywalker name in any core trilogy film. It's called the Skywalker saga for a reason after all. But I think Rey's arc "could" have dovetailed with a competently written Skywalker's, without either getting screwed. And that would have meant Finn got the treatment he deserved. The original films gave Leia and Han a great amount of screen time and importance in the plot; not hard to make room for the new cast and keep Rey a critical player.

    But gods, it's just one problem in a storm of problems.

    The reason why Rey “should” have been a Skywalker has much more to do with the simple fact that you don’t want her story in “competition” with the family story, because almost any ignorant creator will immediately start sacrificing her characterizing and story for the sake of the family story.
    And that's a legit issue in the hiring process, because any idiot can ruin a good thing. Nothing is fool proof. But it wouldn't have been difficult for Rey to share the spotlight equally with Kylo (or whatever Skywalker, since we're hypothetically changing the story).

    People overlook how much the family story immediately determines how they view the story and characters.
    To be fair, I think maybe this is more of a thing with us older fans. I think the legacy of "Darth Vader" might have felt.....bigger....than the legacy of "Little Ani." Does that make sense? We knew Vader first; big and scary and super cool. And with the twist that Luke was his kid? Easy to be intrigued by where the family goes next. But when the character you first know is Little Ani? He's got his moments but he's not exactly a well executed character. I can see the kids who came up with the prequels not being as interested in where Ani's family line goes next, yknow? Or maybe that's just my anti-prequel bias, I really think those films are awful.
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  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    You’re 100% correct that the family tie wouldn’t guarantee Rey being written well, but it’s not the audience’s subconscious I’m talking about here - I'm talking about guys like Rian Johnson himself, Pablo Hidalgo, Jason Fry, Kathleen Kennedy, etc.

    I respect all those people in most stuff they deal with, but it’s clear all of them stopped caring about Rey and running straight towards Kylo and Luke instead because of the family story, and it continued to plague the story after TLJ - they seemed to fire Trevorrow more because he couldn’t give them the heroic story they wanted for Ben rather than anything else.

    That kind of myopic focus isn’t healthy… but at least it would make more sense for the main freakin’ character.

    And it would likely also provide a massive cover for the character much like it did for Kylo, which would likely lead to fewer people abandoning the films, and more people wanting more stuff with Rey - as well as likely killing the “Mary Sue” bullshit she gets. It’s unsettling how few people raised up a single issue with Kylo becoming a black hole at the center of the story - likely because he was a Skywalker - and how few people have a problem with Anakin or Luke doing over-powered shit, just because the lore accommodates it.

    Now, none of that is any guarantee of quality… but it’s at least a guarantee of LFL not showing their heads up their ass about Kylo alone, and likely increases support for Rey - among men and women, because let’s not pretend like women would have felt betrayed by getting a female Skywalker lead.
    Ok, but you're taking the viewpoints of specific filmmakers and projecting them onto every filmmaker (if I'm getting you right). Other filmmakers could've made a good trilogy focusing on Rey and Finn, and given every character their due without making any of the protagonists related to any of the previous ones. Yet I get the sense you think that's not possible or likely enough, when I think it is

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    Quote Originally Posted by CosmiComic View Post
    Ok, but you're taking the viewpoints of specific filmmakers and projecting them onto every filmmaker (if I'm getting you right). Other filmmakers could've made a good trilogy focusing on Rey and Finn, and given every character their due without making any of the protagonists related to any of the previous ones. Yet I get the sense you think that's not possible or likely enough, when I think it is
    I’ll be honest and say some of my pessimism comes from how accepting and non-character a bunch of Hollywood types seem about TLJ screwing over Rey, implying they gave into the same issue Johnson had. And not just “Hollywood types” but LFL members themselves - Pablo Hidalgo and Jason Frye are two dudes I respect in all things Star Wars… until they start talking about the ST.

    Abrams, thanks to TFA, makes me think he could have done the right thing… But I also think he shouldn’t be blamed for the “course correction” he tried to make in TROS as much as others - the story was written into a corner by TLJ, and Rey having a claim on the multi-film story that TLJ had raised above her was neccessary.

    But that’s still for Rey by herself.

    I honestly don’t think anyone who actually enjoys the family story can enjoy the way the ST doomed them to an ignominious death and a disgraceful waste of space like Kylo. I’m not kidding when I say it would be better if Kylo didn’t exist - ROTJ’s a happy ending, dammit, and that’s better than some tragic bullshit for no damn reason.
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    I honestly don’t think anyone who actually enjoys the family story can enjoy the way the ST doomed them to an ignominious death and a disgraceful waste of space like Kylo. I’m not kidding when I say it would be better if Kylo didn’t exist - ROTJ’s a happy ending, dammit, and that’s better than some tragic bullshit for no damn reason.
    Pretty much this. I have no real problem with Ben Solo being tempted and/or corrupted by the dark side. That's a common Skywalker narrative trait. But I do take great issue with how the sequels screw over Luke's happy ending in ROTJ. It rips the floor of the story right out from under him and turns him into a chump who ended up accomplishing nothing in all the years following the Empire's defeat.

    And Ben's arc feels entirely disjointed. He returns to the light, as all Skywalkers eventually do, but the journey getting there....maybe if we set aside how toxic the dynamic with Rey is, Ben's arc isn't as bad but he still goes from one extreme (serving the new Palpatine to gain power and rule the First Order) to the other (destroying Palpatine and returning to the light) within a single film and it all feels rushed and unearned.

    I'd be okay with Ben being the last Skywalker. The family was created by the Force for a purpose, and with that purpose achieved I'd accept the bloodline ending. I wouldn't like it, but I could accept it....if the family story didn't end with everyone looking so bad. And as I've said before, the Capulet/Montague dynamic the sequels throw into the mix means that the narrative balance is thrown off by the Skywalkers ending while the Palpatines live on. That's not such a huge thing in and of itself, but when combined with Luke's failing, Ben's crap storyline, and everything else....the sequels end up being really unsatisfying.

    At least with the prequels, they started off bad, and improved moderately with each new episode and maintained their story. But the sequels started off pretty well, and then fell into a cycle of weird, off-tone swerves, broken/dropped storylines, and random course-corrections that never resolved in any meaningful, satisfying way.
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