The Jedi/Luke Romance Debate

[Ascended]

Why exactly does Luke need a kid?

I think it's necessary from a thematic standpoint. Not that Luke specifically have a kid, but that the Skywalker bloodline continue because Palpatine's bloodline did. The Skywalker saga is about balance, so if one bloodline survives, both should. And while I can appreciate Rey taking the Skywalker name, I don't think that counts.

Leia only had the one kid. There was too much talk between that side of the family for me to believe she had another child that, somehow, was never mentioned. But what Luke was doing between RotJ and the sequels is left vague enough for him to have had a child. He doesn't talk to Han, Leia, or Ben enough for a kid to be mentioned, and he has no reason to tell Rey about one. If he believes the child is dead, or would be in danger if people found out it exists, that's reason enough for him to stay quiet about it. And something like that has a nice symmetry with Anakin. Again, thematics. Star Wars plays hard and heavy with its archetypes.

For me, that's the only reason Luke "needs" to have a kid. Star Wars demands a certain degree of balance, I find Rey's parentage throws that off because there isn't a surviving Skywalker as well, and Luke's the only real option left to us.

There are other ways to balance out the bloodlines, but I think Luke having a kid is the simplest, cleanest solution.

Plus there's precedent; he had at least one child with Mara Jade in the old canon. This would just be bringing back something we already had.

[godisawesome]

Why exactly does Luke need a kid?

I think it's necessary from a thematic standpoint. Not that Luke specifically have a kid, but that the Skywalker bloodline continue because Palpatine's bloodline did. The Skywalker saga is about balance, so if one bloodline survives, both should. And while I can appreciate Rey taking the Skywalker name, I don't think that counts.

Leia only had the one kid. There was too much talk between that side of the family for me to believe she had another child that, somehow, was never mentioned. But what Luke was doing between RotJ and the sequels is left vague enough for him to have had a child. He doesn't talk to Han, Leia, or Ben enough for a kid to be mentioned, and he has no reason to tell Rey about one. If he believes the child is dead, or would be in danger if people found out it exists, that's reason enough for him to stay quiet about it. And something like that has a nice symmetry with Anakin. Again, thematics. Star Wars plays hard and heavy with its archetypes.

For me, that's the only reason Luke "needs" to have a kid. Star Wars demands a certain degree of balance, I find Rey's parentage throws that off because there isn't a surviving Skywalker as well, and Luke's the only real option left to us.

There are other ways to balance out the bloodlines, but I think Luke having a kid is the simplest, cleanest solution.

Plus there's precedent; he had at least one child with Mara Jade in the old canon. This would just be bringing back something we already had.

For me, it’s a bit of contextual and nuanced issue.

Luke doesn’t need a kid. The Skywalker bloodline doesn’t need to continue.

…But the Skywalker family story needed something more substantial and satisfying than this depressing-ass ending.

If Kylo didn’t exist as a giant “Man, I wish Han had a vasectomy when he married Leia” scenario and if we didn’t have a “Well… the whole family is dead now, but we tried sticking the last name of the member Rey was least close to on her to preserve the IP”, than Luke could have died a bachelor without any kids and I don’t think anyone would throw a hissy fit.

The problem is we watched six films of this single family’s story across three generations, including an initially very satisfactory, if somewhat bittersweet ending in ROTJ, resurrected it through a new family member who couldn’t supply a satisfactory ending by himself… and then it ends with that character cementing his place as the worst member both in-universe and out, and being responsible for the deaths of all his much better family members. And they screwed over Rey and Finn for him as well, so it’s not like Rey is actually getting pushed as a family member, or that Finn fans have any reason to feel anything but bitter spite over Ben Solo being a worse character in every way, but getting Finn’s spot for a lame-ass last minute attempt to make Skywalker Family fans feel something.

Some people didn’t find the Skywalker family story in trouble after TLJ, and didn’t really care about the family story in a way that required a hopeful ending; that’s fine for them. But the family story was what made Star Wars special in the first place, and no one gained anything from hvaing Ben “I should have been aborted!” Solo as their denouement. It’s not like fans of TLJ would have been driven away by a happier ending for the Skywalker’s being on the table… and that’s because that would be a superior story.

So that leaves the hope that someone introduces another generation of the family. Yes, Ben could have a hidden kid somewhere as well… but Ben was a crappy ass romantic lead, so screw that. Better to have Luke get hooked up between trilogies and give Rey a surrogate daughter/sister to really tie her to the family with.

And yes, I know it ain’t happening; too many people have too much denial about TLJ being a good movie to stand having it’s cancerous impacts remedied - that’s one reason why Abrams could never fixwhat TLJ did to the franchise with TROS.

[ChrisIII]

Ben's Legends analog, Jacen, had a secret kid.

[godisawesome]

Ben's Legends analog, Jacen, had a secret kid.

Yeah, and as a Jacen fan, I liked that! If anything, the biggest issue was that Troy Denning just made Jacen and Tenel Ka’s consummation of their romance more of a one-time boot-call-with-strings-attached… but then they let Han and Leia raise their granddaughter after Jacen went bad and died, and that was after he had an awesome time as a hero first.

But I hate Ben. He’s worthless. He’s not really worthy of comparison to Jacen, nor is Kylo comparable to Darth Caedus. I don’t want anyone else trying to make him a romantic lead in either persona.

…I could probably be okay with it if someone else got to have a kid to. A kid for Luke would be an effective bribe… as would maybe having Rey and Finn fixed after what Rian Johnson did to them, and possibly made a romantic couple as well.

Because screw Ben Solo, because they screwed up Ben Solo, and everyone else for him.

[Sacred Knight]

As far as simply romance, I would be okay with either or. I supported him being in a relationship in Legends because Mara Jade was such an awesome character and layered contrast to Luke that it made you root for it to happen. But I wouldn't have necessarily ever needed it. In current canon though, I agree with Ascended taht the Skywalker bloodline absolutely needs to continue considering the Palpatine bloodline does.

[ChrisIII]

Could if they cloned Luke/Leia/Ben I suppose. Only reason Rey exists in the first place is because of a rogue Palpatine clone (His "Son").

[Ascended]

I'd be fine with a clone.

I agree with godisawesome that the Skywalker family story needed a better ending than what we got, that's part of my dissatisfaction with things too. But as long as the Palpatine bloodline endures I think the Skywalkers need to as well. If the entire saga is about balancing the Force it doesn't make sense for one powerful bloodline to live on while the other doesn't. Either destroy both or let both endure.

If that happens because of a clone, I'd be perfectly fine with it. Luke's story and character don't demand a child, Leia only had one, and Kylo shouldn't be allowed to continue in any form at all. A clone gets around a lot of issues that a retconned kid would create. Plus there's the fun of who made it? Who raised and trained it? For what purpose?

One of my early theories about Omega (in the Bad Batch) is that she was a clone of Anakin created by Palpatine in case the real Skywalker didn't turn to the dark side. But that doesn't seem to be the case, Omega was cloned from Jango's genetics just like all the other Republic clones. So unless there's a "mysterious second donor" subplot in season 2.....

Alternatively, Rey could die without having children, ending the Palpatine line. I'd accept that too.

[CosmiComic]

I still don't get why any bloodline has to endure. The entire galaxy isn't just about the Skywalkers

[Immortal Weapon]

I guess so a chosen one can always be on deck.

[godisawesome]

I still don't get why any bloodline has to endure. The entire galaxy isn't just about the Skywalkers

The thing is we already know the Galaxy is bigger than the Skywalkers, and that the franchise is as well; we’ve known for decades. It’s got nothing to do with bloodlines or Chosen Ones, but stories and sagas inside the franchise. The Skywalkers were the biggest, and most resonant storyline. They weren’t all that Star Wars was about, but they were it’s most prolific legend.

They ain’t holding **** back, so there was no need to be afraid of them doing so.

The thing is… they had a family story that we were asked to invest in for more than six films. They had an ending it that story. It was satisfying and cathartic.

Then it got opened up again, so it needed to find a way back to satisfying because tragedy sucks ass, particularly if it’s pretentious, needlely depressing and loathsome tragedy.

Kylo Ren is a pretentious, needlessly depressing and loathsome tragedy that sucks ass if he’s the last chapter of the family story. Better he never existed and we never saw Han, Luke, or Leia ever again, than they all ended up dying for Kylo Ren.

It’s like Hal Jordan being turned into Paralax, but worse.

[Ascended]

I still don't get why any bloodline has to endure. The entire galaxy isn't just about the Skywalkers

Nobody is saying the franchise *has* to revolve around the Skywalkers.

Most of us aren't even saying the Skywalkers *have* to continue; only that if the Palpatine family does, the Skywalkers should as well for reasons of thematic balance. It's not a hard concept here and I'm sure we're all well versed in it; you don't have Yin without Yang, you don't have Light without Dark, and the Emperor's bloodline shouldn't endure if Vader's doesn't.

I was perfectly content with things when it seemed both bloodlines were finished. The families did what the Force needed them to, and could have ended and allowed the franchise and galaxy to move forward. I would have been fine if both families had survived, too. Either option would have worked to the benefit of the wider narrative. But only one bloodline surviving, especially after all the effort to build the families up within the mythology of the Force, and you're just going against the grain. It doesn't flow properly with the rest of the archetypes in play. It was a mistake and an example of someone not understanding the primal narrative structures that turn the wheels of this franchise.

And as godisawesome has said, the fact that the Skywalker line met such a crap, depressing ending is just adding insult to injury.

[CosmiComic]

Nobody is saying the franchise *has* to revolve around the Skywalkers.

Most of us aren't even saying the Skywalkers *have* to continue; only that if the Palpatine family does, the Skywalkers should as well for reasons of thematic balance. It's not a hard concept here and I'm sure we're all well versed in it; you don't have Yin without Yang, you don't have Light without Dark, and the Emperor's bloodline shouldn't endure if Vader's doesn't.

I was perfectly content with things when it seemed both bloodlines were finished. The families did what the Force needed them to, and could have ended and allowed the franchise and galaxy to move forward. I would have been fine if both families had survived, too. Either option would have worked to the benefit of the wider narrative. But only one bloodline surviving, especially after all the effort to build the families up within the mythology of the Force, and you're just going against the grain. It doesn't flow properly with the rest of the archetypes in play. It was a mistake and an example of someone not understanding the primal narrative structures that turn the wheels of this franchise.

And as godisawesome has said, the fact that the Skywalker line met such a crap, depressing ending is just adding insult to injury.

I don't really buy that. So what if Palpatine's line endures? Being related to someone doesn't make them good or evil. This all just seems like making all too formulaic and adhering to a repetitive standard, which Star Wars already has a problem with

[godisawesome]

I don't really buy that. So what if Palpatine's line endures? Being related to someone doesn't make them good or evil. This all just seems like making all too formulaic and adhering to a repetitive standard, which Star Wars already has a problem with

Again, for me it’s not the “line” that matters, it’s the way the story plays out. I mean, we already knew that being related to someone doesn’t define morality, we already knew the franchise was bigger than the family, and we already had a satisfactory ending to the family story and Palpatine’s run as villain.

The thing is, I sometimes think people look at the satisfactory ending, or Star Wars’s innate nature as an escapist adventure, and see that as “too formulaic.”

Star Wars is perfectly capable of doing any type of genre… but that genre is going to go through escapism in some way, share or form. Even tragedy is going to be epic and satisfactory rather than trying to use disappointment and anti-climax as primary tools. That’s not a problem of “formula;” that’s a problem of understanding what a continuous story and escapism is.

The idea that ROTJ’s bittersweet but satisfactory ending could be followed up by the ST is frustrating onyl missing the point of Star Wars.

[ChrisIII]

Not that it's especially force related but I'm wondering if the Naberrie line would ever be followed up on. Luke and Leia do have cousins (deleted from AOTC but they appear in ROTS's funeral)

[Ascended]

Being related to someone doesn't make them good or evil.

?? Nobody has said that and I'm not sure how you're getting that out of the conversation.

This all just seems like making all too formulaic and adhering to a repetitive standard, which Star Wars already has a problem with

Then perhaps you're confusing "plot" with "archetype."

The franchise does recycle both plot and archetype more than they should, I agree with you there, but they're not the same thing.