The Jedi/Luke Romance Debate

[ChrisIII]

Should note the TLJ novel opens with Luke having a dream about having never left Tatooine. He marries Camie from the deleted scenes. However, the Empire has total control of everything (and Jabba is also running most of Tatooine as well). Luke wakes up and wonders if the force is trying to tell him something.

[Sacred Knight]

If you go the clone route, just steal from Legends. Its already canon that Anakin/Luke's lightsaber was found somehow after Cloud City.. Considering the state it was in when it was lost, obviously Luke's hand was found with it. So you basically have the set up for something like Heir to the Empire right off the bat.

[Ascended]

I'd be fine with a clone. Rey is the child of a Palpatine clone so there's some interesting parallels there too, and Mandalorian has touched a tiny bit upon some of the philosophical questions surrounding clones and families, with Bo Katan not recognizing Boba as Jango's son or a Mandalorian. A clone of Luke/Anakin/Leia/Ben could dive deeper into that and ask the question of whether the clone is *truly* a Skywalker or not.

And the old Luke clone (what was his name? Luuke?) provides a kind of precedence.

Honestly I wish Abrams hadn't made Rey a Palpatine and introduced the whole dyad, Capulet/Montague thing. The Palpatine bloodline wasn't a factor in the larger thematics until then, and the narrative symmetry wouldn't have demanded any kind of balance between them and the Skywalkers.

At the very least Abrams could have done the "there is another Skywalker" thing, all Yoda like, and left us to wonder who it might have been. Future films could have ignored that or capitalized on it, but either way the narrative balance would've technically been maintained.

[CosmiComic]

Again, for me it’s not the “line” that matters, it’s the way the story plays out. I mean, we already knew that being related to someone doesn’t define morality, we already knew the franchise was bigger than the family, and we already had a satisfactory ending to the family story and Palpatine’s run as villain.

The thing is, I sometimes think people look at the satisfactory ending, or Star Wars’s innate nature as an escapist adventure, and see that as “too formulaic.”

Star Wars is perfectly capable of doing any type of genre… but that genre is going to go through escapism in some way, share or form. Even tragedy is going to be epic and satisfactory rather than trying to use disappointment and anti-climax as primary tools. That’s not a problem of “formula;” that’s a problem of understanding what a continuous story and escapism is.

The idea that ROTJ’s bittersweet but satisfactory ending could be followed up by the ST is frustrating onyl missing the point of Star Wars.

What is escapism, though? I don't see how that factors into it. I'm not seeing anything convincing me the Skywalkers 'thematically need' to continue

?? Nobody has said that and I'm not sure how you're getting that out of the conversation.



Then perhaps you're confusing "plot" with "archetype."

The franchise does recycle both plot and archetype more than they should, I agree with you there, but they're not the same thing.

I just think the franchise needs to avoid recycling the same archetypes too much. Mando is popular without these archetypes

[godisawesome]

I'd be fine with a clone. Rey is the child of a Palpatine clone so there's some interesting parallels there too, and Mandalorian has touched a tiny bit upon some of the philosophical questions surrounding clones and families, with Bo Katan not recognizing Boba as Jango's son or a Mandalorian. A clone of Luke/Anakin/Leia/Ben could dive deeper into that and ask the question of whether the clone is *truly* a Skywalker or not.

And the old Luke clone (what was his name? Luuke?) provides a kind of precedence.

Honestly I wish Abrams hadn't made Rey a Palpatine and introduced the whole dyad, Capulet/Montague thing. The Palpatine bloodline wasn't a factor in the larger thematics until then, and the narrative symmetry wouldn't have demanded any kind of balance between them and the Skywalkers.

At the very least Abrams could have done the "there is another Skywalker" thing, all Yoda like, and left us to wonder who it might have been. Future films could have ignored that or capitalized on it, but either way the narrative balance would've technically been maintained.

The Capulet and Montague thing comes from TLJ having a weird mix of unconscious sexism, racism, and elitism, all pushed through a predictable paradigm coming from Johnson deciding to make sure Rey wasn’t a Skywalker - he automatically raised up Kylo as an ideal romantic interest for Rey, no matter how much that was exactly the wrong thing to do and required hollowing out Rey’s character, automatically denigrated and demoted Finn out of fear he would outshine Kylo, and made the entire story become about Kylo’s feelings.

He did that, and then I’m 99% certain LFL wanted to see it follow through in Episode IX no matter what - I think both TFA and the “parenthetical” comparisons being made with how similar Jannah is to Rey implies he would still much rather it be Rey and Finn for any romance, and it was clearly LFL pushing for Ben to get a larger and larger role away from being the antagonist.

And while I agree with the premise that Skywalkers needed a heroic member, it also needed to be Rey at the time - because of course the great issue is how many people didn’t give a damn about her once she wasn’t a Skywalker (LFL and Rian Johnson first among them.)

I do want to ask; is it the “bloodline” for you, or the family story?

What is escapism, though? I don't see how that factors into it. I'm not seeing anything convincing me the Skywalkers 'thematically need' to continue

Escapism, for me, is about centering and expanding a story on substantial imagination that is “cool,” regardless of whether it’s realistic, tragic, comic, or idealized.

TLJ sucks because it’s dependent on subtraction rather than substance, and disappointment rather than imagination. It kind of hates imagination, satisfaction, complexity, and depth - it regards Star Wars as mostly shallow special effects, and thinks that’s a good thing.

And the Skywalker’s needed to continue because Kylo was there to doom their story to a boring, banal ending if he wasn’t countered by someone else...

…And Kylo was a Skywalker himself because George Lucas’s original plans involved 2 Solo kids as the hero and rival (with yes, the girl as the hero)…

…And Lucas wanted 2 Solo kids because the story is a sequel to the OT and PT - so it’s part of the Skywalker family story.

If there’s no connection to the Skywalker family, than it’s not really a sequel to the OT and Pt. And there is nothing wrong - or even unexpected - about that. Lucas was smart enough to know that if you create a story with the OT3 and try to have new characters as the hero, they’re going to need to be members fo the family of the OT3 - because people will naturally want and expect to focus on the family because that story is already established and strong.

And I have to ask; do you also find Kylo a frustrating, maddening, and “bad” idea?

Because it’s a problem that comes from him being in the story… and way too many people who whine about the idea of a heroic Skywalker don’t have any problem with how pathetically the films decide that Kylo should get special treatment. It’s hypocrisy.

[Ascended]

I do want to ask; is it the “bloodline” for you, or the family story?

Both. I have issues with how the sequels handle both.

When they revealed Rey was a Palpatine (and the dyad business) they folded the Capulet/Montague archetype into the Skywalker mythology, injecting a new dynamic between the franchise families. And they did it badly. I'm not "against" this archetype being used, in theory, though it's not something we needed either. But if you're going to rip this particular idea from Shakespear and also keep the core theme of "balance" (the entire saga is built on it, you can't just drop that) then both families need to survive, or they both need to die out. A future project could correct this, but as it stands now the archetype is broken, so what was the point of using it in the first place?

As for the family story I take issue with that too. I don't know who thought the franchise needed to be reset to Episode 4, but it resulted in a zero net gain for the whole damn OT saga. Everything I've seen you say about this, I think I've agreed with.

And I have to ask; do you also find Kylo a frustrating, maddening, and “bad” idea?

Was that directed at me too? If so, yes I find Ren frustrating. I'm fine with a Skywalker being tempted by the dark side (it's practically a family trait) but....not like this. Ren ruined basically every character he touched.

Now, despite all this bitching, I don't think the sequels are all bad. There's plenty of good stuff in there and if nothing else, the worst of the sequels are better than any of the prequels (I really dislike those movies). I feel like Comic Book Guy here, "worst everything ever!" but it's just none of the good stuff has been a topic of this conversation.

[CosmiComic]

I honestly think the sequels could've worked without any heroes being related to the Skywalkers

[godisawesome]

I honestly think the sequels could've worked without any heroes being related to the Skywalkers

They could have - but without a villain related to the Skywalkers either, because there’s no need to take a piss on the family story for no good reason.

And I do think there’s a limit to how much any trilogy could be a “sequel Trilogy” to the OT and PT without involving the family somehow, because their story is the heart fo those films. A “Disney Trilogy” or a “New Republic Trilogy? Sure.

I just also think that anyone who thinks that Ksywalker heroes would have been boring must also either hate Kylo Ren… or if they don’t, they’re revealing they’re fine with Skywalker leads, they just prefer them to be dudes.

[CosmiComic]

They could have - but without a villain related to the Skywalkers either, because there’s no need to take a piss on the family story for no good reason.

And I do think there’s a limit to how much any trilogy could be a “sequel Trilogy” to the OT and PT without involving the family somehow, because their story is the heart fo those films. A “Disney Trilogy” or a “New Republic Trilogy? Sure.

I just also think that anyone who thinks that Ksywalker heroes would have been boring must also either hate Kylo Ren… or if they don’t, they’re revealing they’re fine with Skywalker leads, they just prefer them to be dudes.

I don't think the only Skywalker being a villain is a bad idea. All these points being made here are subjective. And tbh, turning the main Star Wars movies into just the Skywalker saga doesn't leave a lot of room for expansion. There's a bigger galaxy than just this family and this conflict.

Idk what your last sentence means

[Username taken]

I don't think the only Skywalker being a villain is a bad idea. All these points being made here are subjective. And tbh, turning the main Star Wars movies into just the Skywalker saga doesn't leave a lot of room for expansion. There's a bigger galaxy than just this family and this conflict.

Idk what your last sentence means

Isn't that what they are already? i.e the Skywalker Saga? Lucasfilm have stated the main Star Wars movies have the Skywalker saga at the center.

The first trilogy was about how Anakin fell to the dark side and the second trilogy was how his son Luke redeemed him.

The spin-off movies were meant to explore the greater universe.

[Ascended]

And tbh, turning the main Star Wars movies into just the Skywalker saga doesn't leave a lot of room for expansion. There's a bigger galaxy than just this family and this conflict.

The core films have always been the Skywalker saga. From the very start. Nothing was "turned" into anything in that regard. And the franchise never had a problem expanding beyond them. The old Ewok movies nobody wants to remember, all the novels and comics featuring different characters (many original, some glimpsed for a second in wide group shots of random aliens from random scenes in the films). Rogue One. Solo. Rebels. Mandalorian. In many of these, the Skywalkers don't show up at all, and in the others they get a tiny cameo and nothing else.

Star Wars has never been limited by the Skywalker family, but the core films centered on them.

The sequels didn't need a Skywalker, but we got one and that wasn't a "wrong" choice. And that Skywalker didn't have to be a hero. But the sequels should have treated the originals with some respect and paid attention to the development of the setting, characters, and its core themes instead of hitting the "reset" button.

[godisawesome]

Idk what your last sentence means

What I mean by that is that if someone finds TLJ perfectly fine in how it treats Kylo, I don’t think that person actually has any issue with Skywalkers taking up the story - that whatever they’re saying is either just a story they’ve told themselves or an outright obfuscation.

TLJ is literally just treating Kylo as a privileged character because of his heritage and his demographic - and at the clear expense of the other characters and even Kylo’s own story and potential as well. Like, if there ever was a reason to complain about a Skywalker taking over a story like a black hole, it’s Kylo in TLJ…

But many of the same people who criticize the idea of Rey as a Skywalker are usually completely mum on it - and I think that’s partly because he’s a white boy, and many of them would rather see a white boy Skywalker Villainous Protagonist take a black guy’s position in the cast and have the female main character stripped of a personality and shoved in an abusive relationship that’s about worshipping him rather than see a female Skywalker hero who might have an attraction to a black guy.

I don't think the only Skywalker being a villain is a bad idea. All these points being made here are subjective. And tbh, turning the main Star Wars movies into just the Skywalker saga doesn't leave a lot of room for expansion. There's a bigger galaxy than just this family and this conflict.

Isn't that what they are already? i.e the Skywalker Saga? Lucasfilm have stated the main Star Wars movies have the Skywalker saga at the center.

The first trilogy was about how Anakin fell to the dark side and the second trilogy was how his son Luke redeemed him.

The spin-off movies were meant to explore the greater universe.

Exactly, though I would point out that it’s not even just the spin-offs movies that explore the greater univers - it’s pretty much any non-Saga aligned material.

And it’s always been that way.

If someone thought that the Skywalkers were holding the franchise back… did they miss Rogue One? KOTOR? X-Wing? Rebels?

And yes, there is a problem with the last Skywalker being a villain - objectively you’re going to make less money and tell fewer stories with a popular sub-genre of the franchise, and because as the ST demonstrated… a bunch of your audience and your creators are going to screw over the heroes to treat the villainous Skywalker as an anti-hero.

[Sacred Knight]

Agreed on the Palpatine lineage. I would have rather they just stuck with Rey Random. My first wish was just skipping all the middman crap and just making her Luke's kid, though. As people have already said, Disney specifically coined it the Skywalker saga anyway. As early as Force Awakens. The worse that could've be said is that it wasn't quite original which would have been fair, but it would have made a hell of a lot more sense. And sometimes sense is better than subverting expectations, if you can't also make that subversion make sense, having set up for it in retrospect, which really nothing in the sequel trilogy was because each film changed directions on the other.

[CosmiComic]

Isn't that what they are already? i.e the Skywalker Saga? Lucasfilm have stated the main Star Wars movies have the Skywalker saga at the center.

The first trilogy was about how Anakin fell to the dark side and the second trilogy was how his son Luke redeemed him.

The spin-off movies were meant to explore the greater universe.

Yeah, but they're not following Lucas' story anymore anyway. And the second trilogy already completed that storyline

[CosmiComic]

The core films have always been the Skywalker saga. From the very start. Nothing was "turned" into anything in that regard. And the franchise never had a problem expanding beyond them. The old Ewok movies nobody wants to remember, all the novels and comics featuring different characters (many original, some glimpsed for a second in wide group shots of random aliens from random scenes in the films). Rogue One. Solo. Rebels. Mandalorian. In many of these, the Skywalkers don't show up at all, and in the others they get a tiny cameo and nothing else.

Star Wars has never been limited by the Skywalker family, but the core films centered on them.

The sequels didn't need a Skywalker, but we got one and that wasn't a "wrong" choice. And that Skywalker didn't have to be a hero. But the sequels should have treated the originals with some respect and paid attention to the development of the setting, characters, and its core themes instead of hitting the "reset" button.

None of that requires the main heroes be Skywalkers. They should be treated with respect but that involves making a coherent and interesting story