The Jedi/Luke Romance Debate

[CosmiComic]

What I mean by that is that if someone finds TLJ perfectly fine in how it treats Kylo, I don’t think that person actually has any issue with Skywalkers taking up the story - that whatever they’re saying is either just a story they’ve told themselves or an outright obfuscation.

TLJ is literally just treating Kylo as a privileged character because of his heritage and his demographic - and at the clear expense of the other characters and even Kylo’s own story and potential as well. Like, if there ever was a reason to complain about a Skywalker taking over a story like a black hole, it’s Kylo in TLJ…

But many of the same people who criticize the idea of Rey as a Skywalker are usually completely mum on it - and I think that’s partly because he’s a white boy, and many of them would rather see a white boy Skywalker Villainous Protagonist take a black guy’s position in the cast and have the female main character stripped of a personality and shoved in an abusive relationship that’s about worshipping him rather than see a female Skywalker hero who might have an attraction to a black guy.

Maybe some people just don't think Rey needs to be a Skywalker. the whiny anti-SJWs who hate anything remotely progressive would find any excuse to hate Rey and Finn

[godisawesome]

Maybe some people just don't think Rey needs to be a Skywalker. the whiny anti-SJWs who hate anything remotely progressive would find any excuse to hate Rey and Finn

Oh they did, and it managed to do absolutely nothing while TFA made $2 Billion - and then, whether intentional or not, LFL, Rian Jonnson, and many of TLJ’s supporters catered to them anyways.

There was absolutely nothing “un-progressive” about Rey being a Skywalker, in spite of the attempts some solid make to argue that point - and unfortunately, not making her so stacked the deck against her because it allowed people who were sexist and racist to stack on “Kylo’s the only new Skywalker” in her way, and do the same with Finn.

Like, yeah, Luke didn’t need to get married and have a kid, Rey didn’t need to be his daughter, etc…

… But at a certain level, once Kylo Ren was unveiled as Han and Leia’s kid, it would become significantly more difficult to go through with the idea because it would be an uphill battle not just because of demographics but also well-founded audience expectations.

Even in terms of just what subplots have to be carried through, you don’t want to lock your main character out of a family drama storyline stretching back six movies previously featuring the two previous protagonists; that subplot requires respect to maximize output.

To actually do it, you would need to dedicate signifcant story time decisions to go through with it - Kylo would need to be a deconstruction of his own family story with no one offering him any special favors, Luke would need to train Rey well enough and intensely enough to make her his surrogate daughter to the audience, and you’d need to be dedicated to making sure Finn didn’t get overshadowed by Kylo.

It’s an entire project that would have locked the story into a predictable archetype just as much as other options - kind of like how Kylo had to die once Rey wasn’t a Skywalker.

[CosmiComic]

Audience expectations are part of the problem if they make the movie formulaic. A lot of this just seems like 'it has be to the same thing over again'

[Username taken]

Yeah, but they're not following Lucas' story anymore anyway. And the second trilogy already completed that storyline

To be fair, it was Kathleen Kennedy that said the main Star Wars films were the Skywalker Saga, it was post-Disney buyout.

Lucas had ideas for the third trilogy that would have featured a greater focus on Leia (which was teased in Empire). IMO, there were still stories to be told with the Skywalkers particularly with Luke rebuilding a new Jedi order and Leia ultimately being the "chosen one". Lucas planned for Luke to die in the final trilogy but NOT in the second instalment and certainly not in the manner he did in the TLJ.

[CosmiComic]

To be fair, it was Kathleen Kennedy that said the main Star Wars films were the Skywalker Saga, it was post-Disney buyout.

Lucas had ideas for the third trilogy that would have featured a greater focus on Leia (which was teased in Empire). IMO, there were still stories to be told with the Skywalkers particularly with Luke rebuilding a new Jedi order and Leia ultimately being the "chosen one". Lucas planned for Luke to die in the final trilogy but NOT in the second instalment and certainly not in the manner he did in the TLJ.

I agree killing Luke off in TLJ was a waste. He barely got to do anything

[godisawesome]

Audience expectations are part of the problem if they make the movie formulaic. A lot of this just seems like 'it has be to the same thing over again'

If the expectation is “a good satisfactory story that acknowledges characterization and stakes” than that certainly isn’t a problem. Complaints about predictability are over-blown anyways - The Mandalorian and Rogue One can both get predictable, but remain awesome. Formula ain’t a problem - it’s a tool like anything else.

Formula is an inherent part of any story at this point - and I would argue that something like TFA is actually an argument in favor of knowingly “remixing” the formula to great success. It’s a more original film than TLJ, because while TLJ just subverts expectations around the heroes while ruthlessly conforming elsewhere around the idea that the sad white guy must be the center fo attention and being downright parodic in its take on the Star Wars Galaxy, TFA used “inversions” all over the place.

Finn’s a great original character in TFA because he’s an inversion of our heroes masquerading as stormtroopers. Kylo was a good villain because he was an inversion of Vader. Rey showed strong characterization as an inverse of Luke.

When ever someone complains about something being the same over agin, I usually take it more as “why can’t it be the same in the way *I* want it to be?” instead, or just a jaded plea for shocking swerves regardless of actual substance. Like most of TLJ’s fans still wanting Kylo to be treated like a Skywalker and endorsing that film being even more of a copy and paste fo the Galactic conflict, or not giving a damn about actual storytelling for three films.

Luke showing up in Mandlaorian was, in many ways, actually shocking because it was exactly the kind of “hit a home run off the expectations the audience has” kind of maneuver… and was clearly superior to anything in TLJ in terms of reception, storytelling avenues going forward, and profitability.

Luke could have gotten married, Rey could have been his kid, and the story still would have had a good shot at being more imaginative than TLJ. Happy endings =/= disappointment.

[CosmiComic]

If the expectation is “a good satisfactory story that acknowledges characterization and stakes” than that certainly isn’t a problem. Complaints about predictability are over-blown anyways - The Mandalorian and Rogue One can both get predictable, but remain awesome. Formula ain’t a problem - it’s a tool like anything else.

Formula is an inherent part of any story at this point - and I would argue that something like TFA is actually an argument in favor of knowingly “remixing” the formula to great success. It’s a more original film than TLJ, because while TLJ just subverts expectations around the heroes while ruthlessly conforming elsewhere around the idea that the sad white guy must be the center fo attention and being downright parodic in its take on the Star Wars Galaxy, TFA used “inversions” all over the place.

Finn’s a great original character in TFA because he’s an inversion of our heroes masquerading as stormtroopers. Kylo was a good villain because he was an inversion of Vader. Rey showed strong characterization as an inverse of Luke.

When ever someone complains about something being the same over agin, I usually take it more as “why can’t it be the same in the way *I* want it to be?” instead, or just a jaded plea for shocking swerves regardless of actual substance. Like most of TLJ’s fans still wanting Kylo to be treated like a Skywalker and endorsing that film being even more of a copy and paste fo the Galactic conflict, or not giving a damn about actual storytelling for three films.

Luke showing up in Mandlaorian was, in many ways, actually shocking because it was exactly the kind of “hit a home run off the expectations the audience has” kind of maneuver… and was clearly superior to anything in TLJ in terms of reception, storytelling avenues going forward, and profitability.

Luke could have gotten married, Rey could have been his kid, and the story still would have had a good shot at being more imaginative than TLJ. Happy endings =/= disappointment.

That's not what I mean. And some of what you're saying is still subjective.

[Ascended]

That's not what I mean. And some of what you're saying is still subjective.

Most things in art are. Literary analysis is more objective, since you're applying concepts with solid definitions, but that's still open to wide interpretation and subjective opinion.

None of that requires the main heroes be Skywalkers. They should be treated with respect but that involves making a coherent and interesting story

What a story "requires" as an absolute is....not really a thing, honestly. It's fiction; literally anything can happen. The final scene of the final film could be Luke cutting his way out of the afterlife with a bone lightsaber, returning to life and declaring himself the Hero Queen of All Galaxies while growing luminous extra arms made out of "pure Force."

But that doesn't make it a good story.

And if the characters from the OT (let's not forget Han, Lando and Chewie) deserve respect.....where was that in the sequels? Seriously, are there examples where those guys get anything more than lip service? It wasn't in their plots, since they were there to serve the new cast (and rightfully so). It wasn't in the world they created; Jedi gone, Republic gone, Solo-Skywalker marriage dissolved. Kid a emo wannabe Sith. Everything they fought for across the original films, destroyed. Everyone got a couple scenes to be badass of course, but that's just lipservice.

[CosmiComic]

Most things in art are. Literary analysis is more objective, since you're applying concepts with solid definitions, but that's still open to wide interpretation and subjective opinion.



What a story "requires" as an absolute is....not really a thing, honestly. It's fiction; literally anything can happen. The final scene of the final film could be Luke cutting his way out of the afterlife with a bone lightsaber, returning to life and declaring himself the Hero Queen of All Galaxies while growing luminous extra arms made out of "pure Force."

But that doesn't make it a good story.

And if the characters from the OT (let's not forget Han, Lando and Chewie) deserve respect.....where was that in the sequels? Seriously, are there examples where those guys get anything more than lip service? It wasn't in their plots, since they were there to serve the new cast (and rightfully so). It wasn't in the world they created; Jedi gone, Republic gone, Solo-Skywalker marriage dissolved. Kid a emo wannabe Sith. Everything they fought for across the original films, destroyed. Everyone got a couple scenes to be badass of course, but that's just lipservice.

I didn't say the sequels did it well. They didn't. I'm saying there's many ways to do it. Luke didn't need a romance. He just needed to actually be a Jedi and use his Jedi skills instead of die in the second movie

[ChrisIII]

Would it really have worked though? Sure, there's Mandalorian but that was probably 90% a body double with Mark probably really not really on set until the unveiling/dialogue part. In TLJ when he does fight it comes off as a bit awkward (With older Han it looks kind of better, it's mostly point, run and shoot and Harrison has always been a more physical actor).

[Ascended]

I didn't say the sequels did it well. They didn't. I'm saying there's many ways to do it. Luke didn't need a romance. He just needed to actually be a Jedi and use his Jedi skills instead of die in the second movie

And most of us agree that Luke didn't need a romance. The most any of us are saying is that the original cast deserved better, deserved to see their hard work yield actual results, and that the Rey-Kylo thing threw the narrative balance and the roles those families were supposed to play in the story, off kilter (and only some of us are saying that last part).

Though it did strike me the other day (not as a serious idea but a funny one) that if Luke was going to have a love interest who isn't Mara Jade, an interesting choice would've been Qi'ra from Solo.

[CosmiComic]

And most of us agree that Luke didn't need a romance. The most any of us are saying is that the original cast deserved better, deserved to see their hard work yield actual results, and that the Rey-Kylo thing threw the narrative balance and the roles those families were supposed to play in the story, off kilter (and only some of us are saying that last part).

Though it did strike me the other day (not as a serious idea but a funny one) that if Luke was going to have a love interest who isn't Mara Jade, an interesting choice would've been Qi'ra from Solo.

Luke having the same love interest as Han would be odd

[godisawesome]

Luke could have just trained Rey with the same amount of physicality (i.e., none) as Yoda, and it would have been fine.

If he actually trained her, instead of pouting, sometimes in her general direction.

And again, I’d argue that while Luke not having a romance and being the hero, and Rey not being a Skywalker, was feasible as a successful story idea, it wound up being heavily improbable. Too many people just aren’t going to give a damn about Rey if Kylo is the only new Skywalker. You have to wage a “literary warfare” against those people to sell the idea.

And one of the weirder, and sadder, casualties of the combination of Rian Johnson not wanting Rey as a Skywalker, but still clearly favoring Kylo because of his heritage… was Finn.

There’s a straight line of natural biases and prejudices of many audience members and creators hat goes from “Rey shouldn’t be a Skywalker!” to “Finn should be replaced by Kylo in the story!”

There shouldn’t be… but once Kylo gets that monopoly, Finn has to contend with not just racism, but also the natural desire for a Skywalker to be the lead, and a desire to use Rey to tell the “anyone can be a hero” story he already tells.

Finn ends up a weird casualty of Luke not getting laid, basically.

[CosmiComic]

Again, audience bias shouldn't necessarily inform the plot. Otherwise we just get the same story we've gotten. People will like Rey if she's well written, whether she's a Skywalker or not

[Agent Z]

Luke could have just trained Rey with the same amount of physicality (i.e., none) as Yoda, and it would have been fine.

If he actually trained her, instead of pouting, sometimes in her general direction.

And again, I’d argue that while Luke not having a romance and being the hero, and Rey not being a Skywalker, was feasible as a successful story idea, it wound up being heavily improbable. Too many people just aren’t going to give a damn about Rey if Kylo is the only new Skywalker. You have to wage a “literary warfare” against those people to sell the idea.

And one of the weirder, and sadder, casualties of the combination of Rian Johnson not wanting Rey as a Skywalker, but still clearly favoring Kylo because of his heritage… was Finn.

There’s a straight line of natural biases and prejudices of many audience members and creators hat goes from “Rey shouldn’t be a Skywalker!” to “Finn should be replaced by Kylo in the story!”

There shouldn’t be… but once Kylo gets that monopoly, Finn has to contend with not just racism, but also the natural desire for a Skywalker to be the lead, and a desire to use Rey to tell the “anyone can be a hero” story he already tells.

Finn ends up a weird casualty of Luke not getting laid, basically.

I don't think that many people were bothered by Rey not being a Skywalker but they were just loud enough for the people making the films to think a significant amount of the audience cared that much.