The Jedi/Luke Romance Debate

[Ascended]

Luke having the same love interest as Han would be odd

Sure would! Can you imagine how awkward family reunions would be? I almost wish it had played out that way, just for the comedy.

And just so we're all clear, I'm joking about this. Mostly. There *are* similarities between Qi'ra and Mara Jade, at least on the surface.

Luke could have just trained Rey with the same amount of physicality (i.e., none) as Yoda, and it would have been fine.

Some of the most powerful and dangerous Force users in the lore didn't swing lightsabers or jump across chasms. And some of those guys are considered among the best teachers in the lore.

Finn ends up a weird casualty of Luke not getting laid, basically.

That....is a weird way of putting it, but you're not wrong. Having given it some thought, I think it'd have been damn near impossible to take the sequel characters as they were presented and still provide a quality send-off for the core cast.

As for Rey and whether she'd have been accepted if she had been a Skywalker....hard to tell. There's a small contingent of fans who would've hated her no matter what; either because they're sexist bastards or because it would've meant Luke or Leia abandoned their child. But I think the majority of fans were expecting Rey to be a Skywalker, and expecting a redux of the old Luke-Leia dynamic, and while some may have been disappointed at the predictability of that, I think most people would've mostly accepted it as a tried-and-true franchise paradigm. I feel like most of us were expecting this, and it didn't seem to curb enthusiasm.

[CosmiComic]

But why expect all that? tFA was already a retread of the first movie

[godisawesome]

I don't think that many people were bothered by Rey not being a Skywalker but they were just loud enough for the people making the films to think a significant amount of the audience cared that much.

As for Rey and whether she'd have been accepted if she had been a Skywalker....hard to tell. There's a small contingent of fans who would've hated her no matter what; either because they're sexist bastards or because it would've meant Luke or Leia abandoned their child. But I think the majority of fans were expecting Rey to be a Skywalker, and expecting a redux of the old Luke-Leia dynamic, and while some may have been disappointed at the predictability of that, I think most people would've mostly accepted it as a tried-and-true franchise paradigm. I feel like most of us were expecting this, and it didn't seem to curb enthusiasm.

The way I see it…

- Plenty of people didn’t need Rey to be a Skywalker for her sake; I myself liked her in TFA as a genuinely interesting and likeable character, and a o wasn’t alone. BUT!!!… there were a lot of people who weren’t going to be that interested in her if she was “just some random girl” in the Skywalker story; apathy is a lot more of a danger to her than irritation as the main character of the story

- Lots of people were still going to be most interested in seeing what would happen with the next Skywalker character; this is why we saw her popularity drop immensely after TLJ… while Kylo, who arguably regressed and decayed as a character as much as anyone else, seemed to maintain his fanbase. Kylo naturally picked up the attention of people who were there for seeing the family story continue, though his inadequacy at that role also angered people and added to his suddenly appearing hatedom.

I think it’s a matter of context - Rey, as a main character in a Skywalker Saga story, was the biggest victim of audience expectations turning cold on her and seeing her as useful for Kylo instead, because Kylo was a Skywalker. If Kylo wasn’t a Skywalker, it wouldn’t be a problem. If Rey was a Skywalker, it would give her a greater likelihood of avoiding the cancerously bad relationship with Kylo, and likely have reinforced her popularity from TFA instead fo fading away.

But why expect all that? tFA was already a retread of the first movie

And that both is an exaggeration… and not really a problem in the first place

You keep mentioning subjective opinions here, without acknowledging that if a consensus from the audience shows that they want something familiar… than that’s not a bad thing. You may feel it’s boring for you… but does it repel you? I mean, it clearly doesn’t repel most people, just like it doesn’t repel most people in comics or other genre movies, and in fact, it seems to be something most people want to some extent…

…because if you give it a twist, it actually becomes fresh in its own way.

TFA was fresher than TLJ, primarily because Finn was a fresh character with a fresh perspective, and because Rey and Kylo were inversions of Luke and Vader, while Han was a hilariously ironic twist on Ob-Wan - his opposite character from ANH. Heck, even the First Irder was more of a terrorist sect hidden from the Galaxy than an Empire in TFA. Plus, the implications of those differences were engaging when speculating about the future - Rey having abandonment issues with Luke if he was her father, Finn having a reason to view the Galaxy and stormtroopers differently from our regular heroes, Kylo training to become more evil and powerful like a twisted version of Jedi training, a Galaxy threatened by a small band of fanatics rather than a large empire.

And people like seeing stuff that interested them last time given a new look and new try. We like Batman because we enjoy seeing him defeat his villains while being horrified by their evil, we like Superman saving people and being a good person who inspires people while dealing with misanthropes, and we like watching the Skywalkers struggle with the legacy of their darkside in a Skywalker Saga story.

In fact, most of Kylo’s fans were willing to ignore everything and about TLJ because they wanted to see the Skywalker story, and dammit, that was all that was left.

But those same people weren’t held back from enjoying other, non-Skywalker stuff from Star Wars, because Rogue One and other stuff already existed.

[Ascended]

But why expect all that? tFA was already a retread of the first movie

Well....

…because if you give it a twist, it actually becomes fresh in its own way.

That's why.

You sit down to watch a Skywalker saga movie, you expect some Skywalkers. And if the story plays with the same troupes the other Skywalker saga films have, well, you kind of expect that. In fact, that's probably a big part of what brought you to the theater in the first place; seeing familiar elements that previous films have taught us to look for, and how those elements might be twisted around into new shapes. Hell, that's a central pillar of the "generational story" archetype.

The franchise sticking with the archetypes and concepts that made it popular in the first place isn't a problem so long as it plays with those concepts in new ways. Force Awakens did that to great effect, it was familiar and recognizable but it swerved from the beaten path enough to still feel relatively fresh, and in ways that didn't *completely* crap on prior films. Was it *too* nostalgic? Depends on the individual's point of view. I have my problems with the film but compared to the ones that followed, TFA is Citizen Kane.

[CosmiComic]

I don't expect it to be the Skywalker saga. I expect it to be star wars

[godisawesome]

I don't expect it to be the Skywalker saga. I expect it to be star wars

And in no way did the Skywalker Saga threaten Star Wars, so making sure the Skywalker Saga got a worthwhile coda once that “book” was popped open again is the objectively correct business decision, and “near enough to an objectivity” subjectively correct storytelling decision that ignoring its value both to the story and the business of the franchise is a mistake.

The family story is what originally elevated Star Wars from a retro-throwback to old sci-fi serials into the “space opera” genre; incorporating the mythological and universal tropes and archetypes of great family sagas made Star Wars explode in terms of pop-culture importance and mythological resonance… and it never boxed in the franchise.

I mean seriously: would Rey being a Skywalker have repelled you from the ST? I doubt it, though feel free to correct me.

I know for a fact it wouldn’t prevent you from enjoying Skywalkerless-Star Wars stories; those were already out, already in production, and always in the future plans of the franchise.

It’s kind fo like how just because Superman was the foundational character of DC Comics, he's not holding back the entire brand, so spitefully trying to destroy him isn’t going to be the right decision, no matter an individual creator or audience members opinion of him.

[CosmiComic]

I'm just not sure why you're attached to this idea. The star wars gaalxy is big and doesn't need to revolve around one family. Rey doesn't have to be related to anyone. Why can't she just be someone else?

[Ascended]

I don't expect it to be the Skywalker saga. I expect it to be star wars

TFA was heavily marketed as the start of the Skywalker saga's final chapter. If you didn't expect Skywalkers in that film then that's on you.

[CosmiComic]

TFA was heavily marketed as the start of the Skywalker saga's final chapter. If you didn't expect Skywalkers in that film then that's on you.

When did I say I didn't expect the Skywalkers at all?

[Ascended]

Just above? Post 65. And 62.

If I misunderstood you and you were talking about something else then my apologies.

[godisawesome]

I'm just not sure why you're attached to this idea. The star wars gaalxy is big and doesn't need to revolve around one family. Rey doesn't have to be related to anyone. Why can't she just be someone else?

Because then Kylo The Shitstain will either take over her story (as LFL clearly wanted on some level) or he and the family story must be damned for no good reason. And because most people love the Skywalker family, and want their story to be good. Kylo being a shitstain means he can’t do that himself.

No Kylo, no problem.

And again, you keep insisting Rey being a Skywalker would mean the franchise is revolving around the family… which a) it wasn’t, because Rogue One, KOTOR, etc, and 2) the ST already was because of Kylo and the OT3.

[CosmiComic]

Just above? Post 65. And 62.

If I misunderstood you and you were talking about something else then my apologies.

I just meant I don't expect the movies to be just about the Skywalker legacy

Because then Kylo The Shitstain will either take over her story (as LFL clearly wanted on some level) or he and the family story must be damned for no good reason. And because most people love the Skywalker family, and want their story to be good. Kylo being a shitstain means he can’t do that himself.

No Kylo, no problem.

And again, you keep insisting Rey being a Skywalker would mean the franchise is revolving around the family… which a) it wasn’t, because Rogue One, KOTOR, etc, and 2) the ST already was because of Kylo and the OT3.

None of that is absolute. And I only keep bringing this up because I keep hearing it's somehow better for Rey to be a Skywalker

[Ascended]

I just meant I don't expect the movies to be just about the Skywalker legacy

And when it's a movie like Rogue One or a show like Mandalorian (which are two of the best things Star Wars has ever produced) you shouldn't.

But when the movie is explicitly stated to be part of the Skywalker saga? It's not going to be about much else.

Anyway, back on the actual topic of the thread, if Luke had had a kid, or Leia had had a second one....it might have been interesting for that kid to not be Force sensitive. Has that ever been done? I feel like it'd be a really interesting thing to explore; the history of the Skywalkers is....complicated, and intimately tied to the Force. Would a powerless child feel like they had dodged a bullet, avoiding the burden of a family history that includes Vader and Ren but also Luke and balance to the Force? Or would they be bitter at not inheriting their birthright? Both?

[CosmiComic]

And when it's a movie like Rogue One or a show like Mandalorian (which are two of the best things Star Wars has ever produced) you shouldn't.

But when the movie is explicitly stated to be part of the Skywalker saga? It's not going to be about much else.

Anyway, back on the actual topic of the thread, if Luke had had a kid, or Leia had had a second one....it might have been interesting for that kid to not be Force sensitive. Has that ever been done? I feel like it'd be a really interesting thing to explore; the history of the Skywalkers is....complicated, and intimately tied to the Force. Would a powerless child feel like they had dodged a bullet, avoiding the burden of a family history that includes Vader and Ren but also Luke and balance to the Force? Or would they be bitter at not inheriting their birthright? Both?

But what's been explicitly stated to be part of the Skywalker saga?

[Ascended]

But what's been explicitly stated to be part of the Skywalker saga?

The trilogies. Episodes 1-9. You know, the ones that were about Skywalkers.