Kindred's identity made no sense in the end

[PanicPixieDreamGirl]

[cracks knuckles] Let me see if I've got this right.

-Harry creates clone twins from Gwen's DNA to torment Norman, has Mysterio implant false memories in MJ
-Harry dies and goes to hell, Mephisto claims his soul
-A.I. Harry, controlled by Mephisto, takes control of the twins once they're "born"
-Everything in Sins Past happens more or less as it did?
-A.I. Harry creates a clone of Harry for some reason and Mysterio convinces Norman his son never truly died
-The twins keep aging and dying, Mephisto keeps torturing them in hell then reviving them (to use as weapons against Peter?)
-The twins torment Peter while being controlled by the A.I Harry (Last Remains)
-Sinister War happens
-Doctor Strange challenges Mephisto for Harry's soul and wins, freeing him
-Clone Harry dies
-Twins are killed by Mephisto for failing to kill Peter, whether they ended up back in hell I have no idea
-????
-......profit?

[exile001]

-????
-......profit?

You made me spit my drink laughing at that!

But yeah, I think you've nailed it.

EDIT: I just realised Harry thought Norman was dead at the time, soooo

-Harry creates clone twins from Gwen's DNA to torment Norman (who he thinks is dead), has Mysterio implant false memories in MJ (in case Norman returns)

[Triniking1234]

I should've bookmarked my "I told you so" post.

I feel bad for BND Harry cuz they did a lot of stuff with the character to make me like him again. At least he went out better than Rick Jones. Thanks, Nick.

[Spiderfan001]

[cracks knuckles] Let me see if I've got this right.

-Harry creates clone twins from Gwen's DNA to torment Norman, has Mysterio implant false memories in MJ
-Harry dies and goes to hell, Mephisto claims his soul
-A.I. Harry, controlled by Mephisto, takes control of the twins once they're "born"
-Everything in Sins Past happens more or less as it did?
-A.I. Harry creates a clone of Harry for some reason and Mysterio convinces Norman his son never truly died
-The twins keep aging and dying, Mephisto keeps torturing them in hell then reviving them (to use as weapons against Peter?)
-The twins torment Peter while being controlled by the A.I Harry (Last Remains)
-Sinister War happens
-Doctor Strange challenges Mephisto for Harry's soul and wins, freeing him
-Clone Harry dies
-Twins are killed by Mephisto for failing to kill Peter, whether they ended up back in hell I have no idea
-????
-......profit?

Pretty much, just loop in OMD and the fact that Mephisto made Norman's deal which was a win-win for him.He gets the green goblin and also get's Harry's soul.And all this was done to break Peter IG, and make sure his future kid(I don't think it matters which one but that's just a theory) didn't exist.

Profit is IG PeterMJ kinda stealth broke OMD, won against the devil and if Marvel has any sense(which is a real question at this point) they won't mess w/ them.And Sins Past was retconned, that's neat.Harry's og death is restored which is a win, BND harry is gone which kinda puts a Cap on all the Harry drama.Hopefully Norman get's done for soon, then we'll be done w/ osborn's.

Also Peter is Normie's godfather, if we didn't put Peter in a needed for plot coma we would see that after Spencer, hopefully they still do show it in beyond.

[Chubistian]

I haven’t read the comic, but I like that Harry’s death is back in canon, though I like BND Harry and I don’t think of him as a lesser character just because he is a clone. What I don’t like much is the whole Clone Saga vibe this story gives me. Kindred was more interesting as a creature from Hell (as I understand it, the Stacy twins were tortured in Hell, but Kindred’s powers were gizmos and stuff, not actual hellish powers), maybe with Harry’s soul divided into two beings, BND Harry and OG Harry. I’m glad that Sins Past was retconed without erasing it. I see Marvel Comics as the company that instead of rebooting, choses to retcon (of course, it’s not always this way).

I have a question: How did Mysterio come back from the dead? Was it Mephisto’s doing?

[Spiderfan001]

I haven’t read the comic, but I like that Harry’s death is back in canon, though I like BND Harry and I don’t think of him as a lesser character just because he is a clone. What I don’t like much is the whole Clone Saga vibe this story gives me. Kindred was more interesting as a creature from Hell (as I understand it, the Stacy twins were tortured in Hell, but Kindred’s powers were gizmos and stuff, not actual hellish powers), maybe with Harry’s soul divided into two beings, BND Harry and OG Harry. I’m glad that Sins Past was retconed without erasing it. I see Marvel Comics as the company that instead of rebooting, choses to retcon (of course, it’s not always this way).

I have a question: How did Mysterio come back from the dead? Was it Mephisto’s doing?

Kindred's do seem to have some hellish powers like reviving the dead, etc. given by Mephisto

I think Kindred brought Mephisto back IIRC, although it's been a hot minute since I read that and can't say 100%

[bob.schoonover]

We really need a one-shot journal/secret files to clean all this up. I don't think it'd be hard to clean up, mind you - plenty of ideas in this thread and others cover most of the plot holes or open questions - but it'd be nice to lay out a little more of the mechanics of Kindred, if there are limits on Mysterio's gaslighting ability, etc.

Plus, I want to know who was burying the defective Stacy twin bodies in the flashback panel (I think it was Ned Leeds).

[HypnoHustler]

We really need a one-shot journal/secret files to clean all this up. I don't think it'd be hard to clean up, mind you - plenty of ideas in this thread and others cover most of the plot holes or open questions - but it'd be nice to lay out a little more of the mechanics of Kindred, if there are limits on Mysterio's gaslighting ability, etc.

Plus, I want to know who was burying the defective Stacy twin bodies in the flashback panel (I think it was Ned Leeds).

The Osborn Journal actually made the Clone Saga make sense. So a Kindred Journal might be similarly useful.

[PanicPixieDreamGirl]

We really need a one-shot journal/secret files to clean all this up. I don't think it'd be hard to clean up, mind you - plenty of ideas in this thread and others cover most of the plot holes or open questions - but it'd be nice to lay out a little more of the mechanics of Kindred, if there are limits on Mysterio's gaslighting ability, etc.

Plus, I want to know who was burying the defective Stacy twin bodies in the flashback panel (I think it was Ned Leeds).

I'll do it for free, this Kindred nonsense has maddened me that much.

[Spiderfan001]

We really need a one-shot journal/secret files to clean all this up. I don't think it'd be hard to clean up, mind you - plenty of ideas in this thread and others cover most of the plot holes or open questions - but it'd be nice to lay out a little more of the mechanics of Kindred, if there are limits on Mysterio's gaslighting ability, etc.

Plus, I want to know who was burying the defective Stacy twin bodies in the flashback panel (I think it was Ned Leeds).

Facts, would love to see that

I'll do it for free, this Kindred nonsense has maddened me that much.

Lol yeah, but I think fans can't.There is a lot that we just don't know

[Kingkalamari]

Dont forget Kindred was also filled with bugs and hollow during Spidey's fight in Last Remains, a punch through the face on yielded more bugs through the gaping hole, only for Kindred to be simple to fight in the finale with Spidey making regular jabs.

What's so strange is Gabriel being Kindred wouldve worked out fine if they comitted to it, they didnt however and made it some of the most convoluted nonsense I've ever read in comics, which is incredibly shameful when you are a click away from wikipedia articles dedicated to characters entire editorial history.

[InfamousBG]

Ya I was not that happy or excited the way the whole Kindred story ended. A bit all over the place. Even the name Sinster War was kind of dumb.

[Lukmendes]

We shouldn't be guessing and trying to make sense of it... It's Marvel job to produce a compelling, well thought story :/
They didn't, and they left us with this mess...

Wonder if there are people out there who think this is good because it's convoluted, I know games like Metal Gear and Kingdom Hearts have tricked people with this lol

[cracks knuckles] Let me see if I've got this right.

-Harry creates clone twins from Gwen's DNA to torment Norman, has Mysterio implant false memories in MJ
-Harry dies and goes to hell, Mephisto claims his soul
-A.I. Harry, controlled by Mephisto, takes control of the twins once they're "born"
-Everything in Sins Past happens more or less as it did?
-A.I. Harry creates a clone of Harry for some reason and Mysterio convinces Norman his son never truly died
-The twins keep aging and dying, Mephisto keeps torturing them in hell then reviving them (to use as weapons against Peter?)
-The twins torment Peter while being controlled by the A.I Harry (Last Remains)
-Sinister War happens
-Doctor Strange challenges Mephisto for Harry's soul and wins, freeing him
-Clone Harry dies
-Twins are killed by Mephisto for failing to kill Peter, whether they ended up back in hell I have no idea
-????
-......profit?

You made me spit my drink laughing at that!

But yeah, I think you've nailed it.

EDIT: I just realised Harry thought Norman was dead at the time, soooo

-Harry creates clone twins from Gwen's DNA to torment Norman (who he thinks is dead), has Mysterio implant false memories in MJ (in case Norman returns)

The whole twins thing was to torment Peter more than Norman.

And AI Harry says he always knew that Norman would return, somehow (Keep in mind that around the time Harry died, resurrection wasn't that common), so he had plans ready just in case that happened.

I'm also not sure the Norman manipulation was to torment him, 'cause Norman was quite happy about Gabriel, seemed to be a plan to keep tormenting Peter more... Unless AI Harry also knew he'd more or less come back as a demon, steal Norman's sins, just to he can feel guilty about everything, which, I wouldn't doubt, AI Harry is just ridiculously good at predicting stuff.

I have a question: How did Mysterio come back from the dead? Was it Mephisto’s doing?

Kindred, he can resurrect people, as he did with Sin Eater, ASM#71 shows Harry offering to make a deal with him in hell... And ignore whether or not that's trully Harry and not one of the Stacy twins pretending to be him while being controlled by AI-Harry/Mephisto.

We really need a one-shot journal/secret files to clean all this up. I don't think it'd be hard to clean up, mind you - plenty of ideas in this thread and others cover most of the plot holes or open questions - but it'd be nice to lay out a little more of the mechanics of Kindred, if there are limits on Mysterio's gaslighting ability, etc.

Plus, I want to know who was burying the defective Stacy twin bodies in the flashback panel (I think it was Ned Leeds).

Yeah, whoever was burying them was intentionally covered in shadows, and while the way it's spoken makes it sound like it was Harry, Harry didn't exactly resurrect and clone Harry didn't seem to be involved in this, it had to be someone... Maybe it was Mysterio, or maybe Mysterio made clone Harry do that via magic therapy.

Also possible it's the next batch of clones burying the previous ones, who knows...

Dont forget Kindred was also filled with bugs and hollow during Spidey's fight in Last Remains, a punch through the face on yielded more bugs through the gaping hole, only for Kindred to be simple to fight in the finale with Spidey making regular jabs.

What's so strange is Gabriel being Kindred wouldve worked out fine if they comitted to it, they didnt however and made it some of the most convoluted nonsense I've ever read in comics, which is incredibly shameful when you are a click away from wikipedia articles dedicated to characters entire editorial history.

Kindred being both Gabriel and Sarah could work too, as Kindred did show up with different colored coats at times, problem is that the whole story says it's Harry, then ASM#73 vol 5 says it's Harry using Sarah's and Gabriel's bodies, then ASM#74 says it's AI-Harry controlled by Mephisto to a certain extent and using Gabriel's and Sarah's bodies... And either way it means that Gabriel and Sarah are nothing more than plot devices until the very end where they have control back and they talk in a way like they don't know what's going on that much, it's needlessly convoluted, and while it "makes sense" it's too dumb, and for some reason there'sa clone Harry we have no idea who cloned and why.

Also, reminder Harry's mother is still alive, since she came back in Go Down Swinging, wonder what she's been doing during all of this, hell, maybe she's the mastermind, or maybe she's another of AI Harry's puppets while thinking she's a mastermind .

[IamnotJudasTraveller]

-......profit?

"It was a three year run, so yes!"

[TheCape]

Also, reminder Harry's mother is still alive, since she came back in Go Down Swinging, wonder what she's been doing during all of this, hell, maybe she's the mastermind, or maybe she's another of AI Harry's puppets while thinking she's a mastermind .

I guest that the next Osborn Journal is hers lol.