Who cloned [spoiler] and why?

[PanicPixieDreamGirl]

So the post-Brand New Day Harry is a clone, but for all intents and purpose he seems to be treated as the "real" Harry. Marvel is so inconsistent with clones I've just thrown the towel in there. Peter treats him like the real Harry so that's good enough for me I suppose.

But who cloned him? It wasn't Norman, that much is established. All evidence points to the A.I. Harry I guess, but why? If it had the ability to clone a new Harry, why not use that as the host instead of the Stacy Twins? And why was the clone so radically different to the A.I. Harry?

Also why didn't he degenerate upon death?

I have so many questions.

[Dron]

So the post-Brand New Day Harry is a clone, but for all intents and purpose he seems to be treated as the "real" Harry. Marvel is so inconsistent with clones I've just thrown the towel in there. Peter treats him like the real Harry so that's good enough for me I suppose.

But who cloned him? It wasn't Norman, that much is established. All evidence points to the A.I. Harry I guess, but why? If it had the ability to clone a new Harry, why not use that as the host instead of the Stacy Twins? And why was the clone so radically different to the A.I. Harry?

Also why didn't he degenerate upon death?

I have so many questions.

At this point you could probably just say Mephisto did it. Odds are high you'd be right.

[HypnoHustler]

Maybe Harry AI influenced Jackal. Or maybe Norman had a Harry clone in cold storage that was activated. It’s a plot hole, but one that’s relatively easy to resolve.

Peter is empathetic and treats Clone Harry as real just as he treated Ben Reilly as real after he “died.” Plus, we’ve only seen a couple preview pages, so who knows what Peter will say about him later on. I’m happy BND Harry is gone. It was always a mistake to bring him back in the first place imo.

[IamnotJudasTraveller]

All evidence points to the A.I. Harry I guess, but why?

So far it does seem like AI Harry because while it is going on about its' carefully crafted, years in the making, no-sense making masterplan, it says "you only have one son" and a single cloning vat is shown in front of Norman, while all the other shots established two cloning vats for Gabriel and Sarah.

If it had the ability to clone a new Harry, why not use that as the host instead of the Stacy Twins?

Because it's not who he is, but what he wants! Wait, the arc is over and now we can stop humoring those mystery box quotes? Well, regardless of what Spencer was allowed to do or not, I think pretty much anyone can agree if you want to establish all of this info in your literal two last issues you're doing something wrong and I don't think anyone can make a reasonable guess with what we have right now. At most, I'd guess you could call it part of his flip-flopping gift punishments, like saying Sarah and Gabriel will allow Norman's sins to catch up to him when in the same breath he describes them as the child he always wanted. So... huh, maybe he cloned Harry to say "remember, you don't like THIS guy".

Marvel, I'm putting more effort in your plots than you are. You don't have to hire me, but Paypal is a thing.

And why was the clone so radically different to the A.I. Harry?

From Legacy of Evil, the AI had Harry's face but Norman's voice or something. But besides that, this was an upload of Harry's consciousness before he died and redeemed himself. So, being charitable, since this AI is never going to go for the make or break biological moment of death and realize revenge is less important than friendship, it'll be spinning its wheels wanting to torture Peter... if the half of Norman also there wasn't bad enough for its own non-biological mental health.

Also why didn't he degenerate upon death?

The funny thing is that clones WEREN'T meant to be degenerate upon death. Kaine dies in the Clone Saga, but does not degenerate. Another hulking clone called the Guardian dies, and does not degenerate. One of Jackal's helpers degenerate, but he had a trigger for that, as opposed to dying doing that.

Clones began to degenerate upon death when Ben Reilly died, because Bob Harras wanted that to be the definitive proof Peter was the original. He overrode pretty much every writer saying "that's not how degeneration works".

[HypnoHustler]

I told myself that Ben Reilly degenerated because his cells had been keeping it together under pressure for so many years not showing any signs of degeneration… and then when he died everything fell apart at once. A very unsatisfactory explanation, but there really isn’t a way to no-prize it. I can understand why Harras wanted that in the story though.

[PanicPixieDreamGirl]

I learned yesterday that Black Widow is currently a clone and she killed all her other clones.

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I give up, everyone is now a clone until further notice.

[marhawkman]

I told myself that Ben Reilly degenerated because his cells had been keeping it together under pressure for so many years not showing any signs of degeneration… and then when he died everything fell apart at once. A very unsatisfactory explanation, but there really isn’t a way to no-prize it. I can understand why Harras wanted that in the story though.

Yeah Marvel can't make up their minds how clones work. But one could argue that multiple cloning processes exist, and have different results.

[Kingkalamari]

The biggest problem with trying to address this is the fact the story is so inconsistent, but here's my head canon at least, trying to make a explanation.

Harry dies, goes to hell, as we see at the start of #74. We see Mephisto scolding him over his sins of the fake parents and the Stacy twins, baiting him to believe he could never be a good person. Harry slowly corrupts and turns into Kindred, and proceeds to start hatching a plan by recruiting the likes of Mysterio.

The Stacy Twins emerge, with a iteration of Mephisto overseeing it, influencing the Harry AI to be extra-deranged (Mephisto can operate and be in multiple places at once).

OMD happens, Mephisto is satisfied, but not satisfied enough. Plucks part of Harry's soul from hell and throws him in the Stacy lab, where he becomes a human again. The "European Estate" of the Osborns is reality warped by Mephisto to cover the tracks, and Norman doesnt think anything of Harry's return. If Mephisto can get Harry to have another snap and go evil again, he's got limitless amounts of suffering to wedge between Peter and MJ. He also has Harry go to Europe for regular "business trips", which are actually just cleaning up after the Osborn twins clones going astray, which he is ashamed of and hides from everyone.

This Harry however, doesn't behave the way Mephisto expected. Instead of being the same old Harry, he instead changes for the better, turning against his father and doubling down as a ally to Peter. It's annoying, but it's not a big deal, since Mephisto as numerous plans.

Peter and MJ get together, and Mephisto launches his big ace in the hole: Kindred. Using the Stacy Twins as vessels and the corrupted soul remaining of Harry in hell, which he puts into the Harry AI in the lab, creating a techno-demon of sorts, Mephisto releases Kindred to break the two up. The opening salvo being during one of Harry's routine checks to the lab, Kindred abducts and jails him, leaving him alive to make sure Harry will be broken and end his good streak.

Jump to the end, and BND Harry sacrificing himself in selflessness against the person he hates most breaks Mephisto's grip on Harry's soul, no longer able to dupe Harry to believe that he deserved to be in hell. Harry's soul reunited is able to be at peace, ending Mephisto's plan.

[your_name_here]

We don’t know. The writers don’t know.

Someone will come in a few years down the line to try and cover the messz

[PanicPixieDreamGirl]

The biggest problem with trying to address this is the fact the story is so inconsistent, but here's my head canon at least, trying to make a explanation.

Harry dies, goes to hell, as we see at the start of #74. We see Mephisto scolding him over his sins of the fake parents and the Stacy twins, baiting him to believe he could never be a good person. Harry slowly corrupts and turns into Kindred, and proceeds to start hatching a plan by recruiting the likes of Mysterio.

The Stacy Twins emerge, with a iteration of Mephisto overseeing it, influencing the Harry AI to be extra-deranged (Mephisto can operate and be in multiple places at once).

OMD happens, Mephisto is satisfied, but not satisfied enough. Plucks part of Harry's soul from hell and throws him in the Stacy lab, where he becomes a human again. The "European Estate" of the Osborns is reality warped by Mephisto to cover the tracks, and Norman doesnt think anything of Harry's return. If Mephisto can get Harry to have another snap and go evil again, he's got limitless amounts of suffering to wedge between Peter and MJ. He also has Harry go to Europe for regular "business trips", which are actually just cleaning up after the Osborn twins clones going astray, which he is ashamed of and hides from everyone.

This Harry however, doesn't behave the way Mephisto expected. Instead of being the same old Harry, he instead changes for the better, turning against his father and doubling down as a ally to Peter. It's annoying, but it's not a big deal, since Mephisto as numerous plans.

Peter and MJ get together, and Mephisto launches his big ace in the hole: Kindred. Using the Stacy Twins as vessels and the corrupted soul remaining of Harry in hell, which he puts into the Harry AI in the lab, creating a techno-demon of sorts, Mephisto releases Kindred to break the two up. The opening salvo being during one of Harry's routine checks to the lab, Kindred abducts and jails him, leaving him alive to make sure Harry will be broken and end his good streak.

Jump to the end, and BND Harry sacrificing himself in selflessness against the person he hates most breaks Mephisto's grip on Harry's soul, no longer able to dupe Harry to believe that he deserved to be in hell. Harry's soul reunited is able to be at peace, ending Mephisto's plan.

I'd be totally up for something like that.

It still confuses me whether any "real" Harry rather than the AI was any version of Kindred. The comics basically threw in a TON of completely conflicting and confusing information, geez.

I did notice that when Mephisto shows Dr Strange Harry's soul in hell, it's the Harry wearing the civilian clothes of "clone" Harry rather than the Goblin costume he was wearing when first landing in Hell.

soul.jpg

[PanicPixieDreamGirl]

Wait a minute, I think I've cracked it!

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[ChrisIII]

I learned yesterday that Black Widow is currently a clone and she killed all her other clones.

Image1.jpg

I give up, everyone is now a clone until further notice.

Pretty much. Almost all the X-men now are sort of; even the Hulk I think counts because at one point when Bruce and the Hulk were separated, Bruce used a cloned body.

[Spiderfan001]

I learned yesterday that Black Widow is currently a clone and she killed all her other clones.

Image1.jpg

I give up, everyone is now a clone until further notice.

Isn't Cap a cosmic cube person now.And Tony is a clone, also all the mutants are clones.......

[Kingkalamari]

I did notice that when Mephisto shows Dr Strange Harry's soul in hell, it's the Harry wearing the civilian clothes of "clone" Harry rather than the Goblin costume he was wearing when first landing in Hell.

soul.jpg

I didn't even put that together, but seems like theyre just considering him the real Harry then, and Kindred was never actually Harry but Mephisto piloting the twins through a Harry-Mask, which is fine but also kinda invalidating to Kindred's constant monologuing. Oh well.

[PanicPixieDreamGirl]

Isn't Cap a cosmic cube person now.And Tony is a clone, also all the mutants are clones.......

Tony as well?! Is everyone a clone? Am I a clone?!

I didn't even put that together, but seems like theyre just considering him the real Harry then, and Kindred was never actually Harry but Mephisto piloting the twins through a Harry-Mask, which is fine but also kinda invalidating to Kindred's constant monologuing. Oh well.

The monologuing makes sense if you consider it's probably A.I. Kindred airing his various grievances via the twins... until you get to the bit where he's angsting in the ambulance Harry died in. That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.