AMAZING #75 Review and Spoilers: To Benfinity and Beyond!!!

[Spiderfan001]

To those complaining about Ben being a model of white privilege… then don’t read it. Why does every comic now need a diversity mission statement? Are blonde characters not allowed anymore? Someone tell Johnny Storm. If you want diversity in comics, you have Miles, Silk and plenty of others. This is why people complain about comics being too woke… everything is so politically correct nowadays. Representation is great and I like that people can relate to characters that weren’t available before… but stop complaining about established characters that also have a fan base, especially based on something as petty as a hair color or a storyline where the character gets corporate sponsorship. Sorry, rant over.

EDIT: “appropriate… superhero culture.” Now I’ve heard everything.

Ben has "privilege"?I didn't read all the posts but I have read Ben and guys been suffering all his life.The problem isn't what he has, he deserves all of it.The problem is where he's getting it from and he shouldn't be naive enough to trust Beyond w/out checking them out.Even then after reading stuff like Lost Years I can understand better why he would jump at this chance.

And as a minority myself, Peter and Ben have been through far far more than anything Miles has, Miles's start was full of privilege.A complaint people had was that he got everything handed to him on a silver spoon and reading those comics back it's true from Cap to Nick to May, etc.1610 Peter had to earn all of that while it was just handed to Miles.

Peter(and Ben) better represents difficulty of life much better than Miles.Nit talking about race her btw but total difficulty.Infact I'd say factors Peter represents are just as if not more important than that, and they are far better executed.

[boots]

Well he is. The only reason Ben thinks he's Spider-Man or a superhero is not because of anything he did but because it was handed down to him or rather injected into him upon his conception.
If we go canon, after the First Clone Saga...Peter went on to fight Juggernaut, the Secret Wars, Venom and Firelord while Ben Reilly was doing f--k all, and then he re-entered to upend Peter's life. So the guy who was actually putting in the work and risking his life is made to feel obsolete and insecure because some new blonde clone claims to be the real guy all of a sudden.

in terms of sociology and minority groups, privilege requires access to and benefit from a power system. it's not a boot straps thing.

in terms of living it vs memory, i tend towards the postmodern ideas on memory and identity. at this point in their lives, all those events you describe exist [edit: realised those events were after ben's split from peter] as nothing but memory for both ben and peter, the difference being negligible.

the industrial revolution thing was an interesting tangent

[Revolutionary_Jack]

in terms of sociology and minority groups, privilege requires access to and benefit from a power system. it's not a boot straps thing.

Ben Reilly was manipulated during the entire Second Clone Saga by Norman Osborn and his underlings, so he was a pawn and puppet to wealthy backers intended to torture and gaslight a working-class superhero.

And with Beyond it seems like that's who Ben is again. So Ben isn't inherently and consciously malicious but his existence has always been as an instrument to torture and belittle Peter.

in terms of living it vs memory, i tend towards the postmodern ideas on memory and identity. at this point in their lives, all those events you describe exist as nothing but memory for both ben and peter, the difference being negligible.

From a neurological basis, there's a debate on that, especially because people are moving away from the mind being completely separate from the body. It's like learning a musical instrument. You may know the musical notation and the names of the keys but without constant practice and your fingers working the piano every day you don't really know how to play music. What makes the musician, is it the teaching lessons or the daily practice that maintained their talent. Identity might be the same, it's the daily being and becoming that makes you yourself.

[boots]

Ben Reilly was manipulated during the entire Second Clone Saga by Norman Osborn and his underlings, so he was a pawn and puppet to wealthy backers intended to torture and gaslight a working-class superhero.

And with Beyond it seems like that's who Ben is again.

that's a fair summary, but it's a bit of stretch to say ben benefited or drew privilege from that; essentially setting the working class against itself.

i said in reply to another poster that i don't necessarily think this newfound agency with beyond is actually a positive thing, even if beyond turn out to be totally benign.

From a neurological basis, there's a debate on that, especially because people are moving away from the mind being completely separate from the body. It's like learning a musical instrument. You may know the musical notation and the names of the keys but without constant practice and your fingers working the piano every day you don't really know how to play music. What makes the musician, is it the teaching lessons or the daily practice that maintained their talent. Identity might be the same, it's the daily being and becoming that makes you yourself.

i'm sure there is debate on it, it's a really interesting topic, the mind/body link is a huge part of my career (though from what i've read on muscle memory; it still lives in the mind but simply feels like it's stored in our muscles).

the reason i specified pomo instead of science is because this is one of the themes in fiction i really enjoy. it's why stuff like blade runner and moon are some of my favourites. i'd really recommend moon to anyone who liked the 90s clone saga.

[Shunt]

Well he is. The only reason Ben thinks he's Spider-Man or a superhero is not because of anything he did but because it was handed down to him or rather injected into him upon his conception.

If we go canon, after the First Clone Saga...Peter went on to fight Juggernaut, the Secret Wars, Venom and Firelord while Ben Reilly was doing f--k all, and then he re-entered to upend Peter's life. So the guy who was actually putting in the work and risking his life is made to feel obsolete and insecure because some new blonde clone claims to be the real guy all of a sudden.

Doppelganger stories, i.e. where people meet their double, became popular during the Industrial Revolution as a metaphor for how the workplace makes everyone feel replacable, that the work they do and the life they lived are meaningless to the point that it could be done by a fake guy imitating them. So that fits Peter and Ben quite well.



Great point.

If you are going to play the game of who achieved what, in relative terms, Ben has been playing hero for a way bigger fraction of his life (starting with the guy he kept from committing suicide in a motel) than Spider-Man. And of course, he did it without feeling any kind of entitlement. Quite the contrary.

That's just one of your tries to play the sophist here. It can be an amusing read, but, as it always happens with sophists, you are arguments are more devoid of any real substance than you might think.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

If you are going to play the game of who achieved what, in relative terms, Ben has been playing hero for a way bigger fraction of his life (starting with the guy he kept from committing suicide in a motel) than Spider-Man.

That's one way of looking at it, I guess.

[Spiderfan001]

Well he is. The only reason Ben thinks he's Spider-Man or a superhero is not because of anything he did but because it was handed down to him or rather injected into him upon his conception.

If we go canon, after the First Clone Saga...Peter went on to fight Juggernaut, the Secret Wars, Venom and Firelord while Ben Reilly was doing f--k all, and then he re-entered to upend Peter's life. So the guy who was actually putting in the work and risking his life is made to feel obsolete and insecure because some new blonde clone claims to be the real guy all of a sudden.

Doppelganger stories, i.e. where people meet their double, became popular during the Industrial Revolution as a metaphor for how the workplace makes everyone feel replacable, that the work they do and the life they lived are meaningless to the point that it could be done by a fake guy imitating them. So that fits Peter and Ben quite well.

The problem is there are 2 prespectives here.Ben's and Peter's and both have been messed w/ and worked hard.Looking at it from the prespective from anyone makes the other look bad IMO, and this is from a Peter fan.

If you are going to play the game of who achieved what, in relative terms, Ben has been playing hero for a way bigger fraction of his life (starting with the guy he kept from committing suicide in a motel) than Spider-Man. And of course, he did it without feeling any kind of entitlement. Quite the contrary.

That's just one of your tries to play the sophist here. It can be an amusing read, but, as it always happens with sophists, you are arguments are more devoid of any real substance than you might think.

Yeah, this is Ben's prespective.

I don't think Ben or Peter are entitled, they are just good people trapped in a sh*tty situation.

[exile001]

I won't get to read this until Saturday but I'm pretty damn excited. I share Pav's affinity for Ben.

[Agent Z]

Ben Reilly was manipulated during the entire Second Clone Saga by Norman Osborn and his underlings, so he was a pawn and puppet to wealthy backers intended to torture and gaslight a working-class superhero.

And with Beyond it seems like that's who Ben is again. So Ben isn't inherently and consciously malicious but his existence has always been as an instrument to torture and belittle Peter.



From a neurological basis, there's a debate on that, especially because people are moving away from the mind being completely separate from the body. It's like learning a musical instrument. You may know the musical notation and the names of the keys but without constant practice and your fingers working the piano every day you don't really know how to play music. What makes the musician, is it the teaching lessons or the daily practice that maintained their talent. Identity might be the same, it's the daily being and becoming that makes you yourself.

Ben was being gaslighted same as Peter.

[Pav]

I just want to pop back in to say how much I'm enjoying the discussion, especially all the socio-political ideas being shared. I love seeing the respectful exchange of perspectives about Benny Boy: one of the reasons I love the character so much is because of the philosophical musings his stories tend to elicit.

Keep it up, friends!

-Pav, who is glad we get another issue next week...

[HypnoHustler]

So does this Ben revival count as a third clone saga (or possibly fourth if you count Clone Conspiracy)? Or is it only a clone saga if the major plot-line involves figuring out who’s a clone and who isn’t?

[Captain Craig]

For the most part I hate the whole "someone else is <insert heroes name>" gimmick. Very rarely is it more than something to shake things up an they always go back to the original.

Times I think it worked...Rhodey because Tony was in the bottle. John Walker becomes Cap because it allowed Steve to re-evaluate what and who he thought Cap should be. These were more character driven stories that allowed the characters to grow. But things like Ben Reilly or Otto becoming Spider-Man or Bucky or Sam becoming Cap....cheap sales gimmick.

While originals aren't going to go away(hello real world trademarks & copyrights) the intermediaries prove the value of said "replacement".
Rhodey is still an armored hero as War Machine
John Walker is still USAgent with a shield.
Bucky is his own hero as Winter Soldier.

So all that said Ben can be a Spider-man along side Peter and Miles in universe just as those others are.
There is no reason for a sad ending to this Beyond story. If anything it should serve as the final transition point for Ben to be his own Spider-man.
Then it leaves it wide open for Kaine to be Scarlet Spider.

[Spiderfan001]

While originals aren't going to go away(hello real world trademarks & copyrights) the intermediaries prove the value of said "replacement".
Rhodey is still an armored hero as War Machine
John Walker is still USAgent with a shield.
Bucky is his own hero as Winter Soldier.

So all that said Ben can be a Spider-man along side Peter and Miles in universe just as those others are.
There is no reason for a sad ending to this Beyond story. If anything it should serve as the final transition point for Ben to be his own Spider-man.
Then it leaves it wide open for Kaine to be Scarlet Spider.

Rhodey isn't Iron man, he's war machine
John isn't Captain America, he's US agent
Bucky isn't Captain America, he's winter soldier

Ben should be scarlet Spider by your own logic.Peter is already enough, Miles on top make it more than full.+ Ben having his own identity >>>

I do agree that Beyond doesn't have to end sad.Ben and Janine can move forward, in a diff. city where things aren't so crazy.Like Superior vol. 2 but called Scarlet Spider.Kaine can be Scarlet Spider or something else as well.It should serve as Ben being his own person and calling himself Spider-man isn't it, he still wants to and should help people but that doesn't mean he needs to be called Spider-man.His growth is realization and then differentiation, growing into his own being w/ the same core values as Peter.

[Webhead]

I like my Spider-Men just a little jaded and world-weary while still firmly on the optimistic side.

Ben doesn't come off as a jerk but he looks pretty naive and genre blind for a guy with the cumulative knowledge of early Spider-Man life, several years spent as a clone tormented by men in the shadows and then being a big corp villain himself just months ago in book time.

[Chris0013]

While originals aren't going to go away(hello real world trademarks & copyrights) the intermediaries prove the value of said "replacement".
Rhodey is still an armored hero as War Machine
John Walker is still USAgent with a shield.
Bucky is his own hero as Winter Soldier.

So all that said Ben can be a Spider-man along side Peter and Miles in universe just as those others are.
There is no reason for a sad ending to this Beyond story. If anything it should serve as the final transition point for Ben to be his own Spider-man.
Then it leaves it wide open for Kaine to be Scarlet Spider.

Rhodey isn't Iron man, he's war machine
John isn't Captain America, he's US agent
Bucky isn't Captain America, he's winter soldier

Ben should be scarlet Spider by your own logic.Peter is already enough, Miles on top make it more than full.+ Ben having his own identity >>>

I do agree that Beyond doesn't have to end sad.Ben and Janine can move forward, in a diff. city where things aren't so crazy.Like Superior vol. 2 but called Scarlet Spider.Kaine can be Scarlet Spider or something else as well.It should serve as Ben being his own person and calling himself Spider-man isn't it, he still wants to and should help people but that doesn't mean he needs to be called Spider-man.His growth is realization and then differentiation, growing into his own being w/ the same core values as Peter.

This is exactly it. Let him have his own identity.

Edit...just throwing this out there....Did Beyond hire the U-Foes for 'reasons'?