AMAZING #75 Review and Spoilers: To Benfinity and Beyond!!!

[Huntsman Spider]

I think that would require a long talk to May about Peter being Spider-Man.

Which he should have had by now. I mean, she showed twice (even if the first was retconned as a "genetically altered actress") that she wouldn't fall to pieces if she knew he was Spider-Man. At this point, it's somewhat of an insult that the most important person in Peter's life --- that isn't Mary Jane Watson(-Parker) --- doesn't know the full truth of who he is.

[Chris0013]

Which he should have had by now. I mean, she showed twice (even if the first was retconned as a "genetically altered actress") that she wouldn't fall to pieces if she knew he was Spider-Man. At this point, it's somewhat of an insult that the most important person in Peter's life --- that isn't Mary Jane Watson(-Parker) --- doesn't know the full truth of who he is.

I think they may have even implied she knows...I think it was during the Blitzkrieg America storyline that Spidey swung across town to make sure May was all right but she told him not to worry about her in a way that might have meant she knew.

[Huntsman Spider]

I think they may have even implied she knows...I think it was during the Blitzkrieg America storyline that Spidey swung across town to make sure May was all right but she told him not to worry about her in a way that might have meant she knew.

Ah. Ok, then. I'll have to check that one out again.

[boots]

So does this Ben revival count as a third clone saga (or possibly fourth if you count Clone Conspiracy)? Or is it only a clone saga if the major plot-line involves figuring out who’s a clone and who isn’t?

seems to be wikipedia's definition; says the 3 clone sagas are the 70s one, 90s and miles' recent one.

pretty sure the first two were retroactively labelled that.

i see this more as its own thing.

[boots]

Alex Summers is hated and feared by general society for a trait he was born with and cannot change - y’know, kinda how the LGBTQ+ community is treated - which is part of the US basis for determining who belongs to a protected class. Ben is neither hated nor feared by general society just on the basis of who he is.

being a clone has brought ben a lot of the same. hated and feared on the basis of who he is and how he was born.

it's not inbuilt into his concept in the same way it is with the x-men, but i don't think it's a crazy leap of logic either.

The Beyond Corporation is putting Ben behind a mask. They just want the Spider-Man name, and in fact would be peachy keen if the general population thought it was Peter behind the mask. They are not saying, “hey, look, we’re so progressive we’re hiring a clone!!!1!!1!” They would probably - and will probably - bury that fact. To use your analogy and to continue the LGBTQ+ example, it’s as if a corporation hired a lesbian as CEO but required her to be married to a man and appear as if she’s in a heterosexual relationship in public.

no, as i said, analogies aren't 1:1. especially if the analogy was likely unintentional. the beyond corp aren't trying to push representation or clone rights, but the point is about a system of power accepting and elevating you.

to be clear i'm not saying this story or the character of ben is being used in a mark millar style political narrative. ben saying "i claim my identity and i don't feel the need to ask permission anymore" strikes me as analogous to the fight i see many of my colleagues and friends still in to this day.

Glad to see we agree.

we do, it was an interesting idea that you suggested but i think it takes my initial thought too far.

A) Peter is often coded as Jewish, although he is also coded as Christian.
B) Didn’t say he was. I said Ben’s actions were that of a colonizer who comes in and tells the person already occupying the space to get out/be subservient. Also, historical dispossessed native populations include Celts and Picts - as well as the Scottish and Irish until well into the 20th century.

so we have a coded jewish clone dispossessing a coded jewish natty human?

Ben hasn’t been denied structural or systemic power at all. He’s a white American man in the 20th/21st centuries.

alex summers is a white american man, who could easily code switch like ben to be considered "normal" if both decided to closet their identities as mutant and clone. at least alex has a birth certificate.

No, it was me making fun.

i figured you took issue with how i was identifying with the panel, but since it's online, i figured i'd give it the benefit of the doubt.

[boots]

I really love how things played out. Peter understood where Ben was coming from quickly, even if he's not sold on the concept.

that's an angle i'd like to see play out in their relationship: they might be able to surprise each other, but on a deep level, they get why the other acts the way he does.

[Kingkalamari]

After the confusing clone stuff at the finale of the Kindred Saga, going back to a trusted clone I know is nice.

Saw some people earlier saying it seemed like Reilly was being a jerk/evil, I didn't really feel like it was either here, if anything he seems pretty naïve to the idea he can do good from within the Beyond Corporation and not just be their corporate puppet.

Glad to see Dr. Kafka showing up for this arc, was cool to see her back during Sins Rising, but she kinda exited the story towards the end.

Bummer there's no Boomerang mentions, you think Randy would mention him instead of Harry, but I dunno, reeks of internal jabs, both Spencer killing off Boomerang, and the new writers just pretending he didn't exist.

[boots]

Good to know.Yeah that story really hit home.The main story was great as well, I love the dynamics and monologues(even though they were a bit too long IMO)

ha, idk if that's a JMD thing or a 90s thing. superhero comics were wordy

[TinkerSpider]

being a clone has brought ben a lot of the same. hated and feared on the basis of who he is and how he was born.

When has it ever been shown Ben can’t get a job or is chased out of town because he’s a clone? Or any clone?

Admittedly, I haven’t read every single Marvel comic, but clones are not hated and feared as a class of people like mutants are to the best of my knowledge. Isn’t Black Widow currently a clone? Doc Ock? Laura Kinney? What problems they face are not due to the fact they are clones.

it's not inbuilt into his concept in the same way it is with the x-men, but i don't think it's a crazy leap of logic either.

It is when clones in the Marvel U are not used as stand-ins for oppressed groups, but the X-Men definitely were.

no, as i said, analogies aren't 1:1. especially if the analogy was likely unintentional. the beyond corp aren't trying to push representation or clone rights, but the point is about a system of power accepting and elevating you.

Your analogy is more like 37830204:Q.

Beyond Corp. could care less he’s a clone. Therefore, it has nothing to do with elevating an oppressed group. Therefore, the analogy doesn’t work on any level.

to be clear i'm not saying this story or the character of ben is being used in a mark millar style political narrative. ben saying "i claim my identity and i don't feel the need to ask permission anymore" strikes me as analogous to the fight i see many of my colleagues and friends still in to this day.

You can read whatever you like into a funny book. Be my guest. I identify with all sorts of characters myself. That has nothing to do with whether the analogy works.

so we have a coded jewish clone dispossessing a coded jewish natty human?

We have a human being dispossessing another human being, yes.

alex summers is a white american man, who could easily code switch like ben to be considered "normal" if both decided to closet their identities as mutant and clone. at least alex has a birth certificate.

Wait, I thought your analogy was about NOT having to code switch and hide in closets anymore, but stepping into the light and taking their identity for themselves? And as it is, Ben is indeed hiding. He’s pretending to be Peter’s Spider-Man as that’s the trademark Beyond owns.

[Aura Blaize]

I think they may have even implied she knows...I think it was during the Blitzkrieg America storyline that Spidey swung across town to make sure May was all right but she told him not to worry about her in a way that might have meant she knew.

They have toyed with the idea that she knows. Honestly I wish they would come out with it already. May has shown on MANY occasions that she's not some frail old woman, especially as of late, with running FEAST and all.

[TinkerSpider]

But why should he have to? You are arguing that Ben is invalid as a person, whether you realize it or not. He is Spider-Man. He always has been, from the moment of his creation. Even Peter recognized this during the Clone Saga, though obviously under conditions that murk the waters a fair bit.

What you are saying is that Ben is lesser and should have to accept being lesser merely by the byproduct of how he was born. Separate but equal. That's simply not the case, at all.

No one is saying Ben is “lesser” or “invalid.” Nor is anyone saying Ben is not Spider-Man - but he’s A Spider-Man, in the way Miles is Spider-Man, in the way Peter of MC2 is Spider-Man. But he is not THE red-and-blue (and occasionally black-and-white) Spider-Man that has been patrolling 616 NYC for the past, oh, let’s just say eight years since the cloning. So are you implying Miles is “lesser?” That MC2 Peter is invalid, because he is not 616 Peter?

What people are saying is that - for Ben’s own mental health, really - he needs to establish his own identity. And he calls himself Ben Reilly so he understands that on some level.

Ben and Peter may have started from a single point but ever since Ben was created he has diverged from Peter. Even if they were to stand side by side, Ben would see the world slightly differently than Peter simply because he physically cannot occupy the exact same space as Peter. They have had different experiences, learned different things, been changed by different people and situations. You are not the same person you were eight years ago - literally in some areas, as human cells die off and are replaced at different rates - and Ben and Peter are not the same person even if they started from the same origin.

The Beyond Corporation bought the rights to PETER’s Spider-Man, including the last eight years and especially whatever IP Parker Industries filed, it seems. That’s who Ben is pretending to be. Instead of being his own Spider-Man.

Which is fine, because I’m guessing the theme of the story will be about identity and what actually makes us who we are and Ben learning to take up his own mantle in some fashion.

Also? Being Spider-Man is not a human/civil right. Therefore, separate but equal does not apply.

[boots]

When has it ever been shown Ben can’t get a job or is chased out of town because he’s a clone? Or any clone?

it's been a big part of his story? that he was a "shadow of a man" a "thing" etc etc. it's always been dehumanising. being treated as subhuman.

stryfe also had a major clone boner too, which idk, could also be internalised cloneism.

maybe this thing really does have legs.

pointing out that some clones have a degree of acceptance or success, just as some irl minorities do, ignores the broader complexities.

It is when clones in the Marvel U are not used as stand-ins for oppressed groups, but the X-Men definitely were.

that's fine if you want to keep to an authorial intent type of lit crit.

Beyond Corp. could care less he’s a clone. Therefore, it has nothing to do with elevating an oppressed group. Therefore, the analogy doesn’t work on any level.

beyond corp doesn't care to truly elevate ben in the same way most corporations don't truly care to elevate minorities.

you can run the "mutants as stand-ins" for lgbtiq communities and find that a lot of it doesn't fit the specificities and nuances of their irl concerns either. that's been a huge criticism from some in the community.

You can read whatever you like into a funny book.

cheers, my funny book friend.

We have a human being dispossessing another human being, yes.

but the hair colour is important, let's not forget.

and peter is dispossessed now?

Wait, I thought your analogy was about NOT having to code switch and hide in closets anymore, but stepping into the light and taking their identity for themselves? And as it is, Ben is indeed hiding. He’s pretending to be Peter’s Spider-Man as that’s the trademark Beyond owns.

it was.

this particular point was highlighting how "white american male" in the marvel universe isn't as clear cut as it is in irl. even moreso when superhero identities are mixed in. i also said that they could closet, not that ben intended to do so. it's right there in the text you quoted.

when this sort of thing happens (goal post moving, or un/intentionally misrepresenting the other person's point), i tend to bow out. appreciate the chin-wag though, mate. last word is all yours.

[Pav]

All of that doesn't mean he has to do it as Spider-Man. He can choose a different identity.

Continuity that I personally enjoy: MC2 Peter tells Mayday that, in his opinion/recollection, Ben enjoyed being Spider-Man more than he ever did.

(That's Tom MerFing Defalcooooooo.)

Okay, a bit of a tangent… but I swear, this is one of the most underrated Spidey stories ever. I never hear anyone talk about it. The engaging plot, gorgeous art, snappy dialogue, unique setting, genuinely terrifying villain (Tendril)… are all great. Unfortunately just like our recent #74, the last issue was a victim of editorial interference. It was supposed to end with Baby May being born, but by then Marvel had already decided to bring Peter back and mandated Nicieza change it. The compromise was they said Peter could lose his powers, but then they tried to back out of that as well. Nicieza was so unhappy he almost walked off the book halfway through the mini, so Marvel relented as giving Peter back his powers would be relatively easy to fix (easier than “fixing” a baby anyway… ah, what could have been).

That's the thing, right? The Clone Saga tends to get portrayed negatively in general, but it contains so many hidden gems, wonderful character introductions, and yeah: just some dang fun comics. (Just stay away from Maximum Cloneage, y'know?) Put me in the writer's chair and I'm bringing Tendril back in my "Sinister Web of the Spider-Men" storyline

I really hope by the end we get Peter introducing Aunt May to Ben Reilly and Ben finally getting a hug and relationship with her

After seeing the preview for 76, this is a hope I have now as well. How do we feel about Marvel really establishing a larger family unit for Peter and May (and MJ) -- maybe including Ben? Kaine? Teresa? I'd be down.

So we all agree there's more than poisoning to Peter repeating "The danger is inside", right? And it's probably tied to faceless Uncle Ben?

There's no reason to believe it'll happen, but if Beyond's multidimensional shenanigans lead to a return of Harrah Harrah Spider-Demons from Spider-Man: Fever, I will shit my spider-pants in glee.

The Beyond Corporation bought the rights to PETER’s Spider-Man, including the last eight years and especially whatever IP Parker Industries filed, it seems. That’s who Ben is pretending to be. Instead of being his own Spider-Man.

I would argue that the costume choice is one point in favor of Ben being his own Spider-Man rather than pretending to be Peter being Spider-Man.

I don't think Ben would ever want to pretend to be Peter. Even when he believed himself to actually be Peter, he stayed Ben Reilly. But he didn't stay the Scarlet Spider.

Ben loves being Spider-Man.

-Pav, who loves Ben's stories...

[jda95]

Continuity that I personally enjoy: MC2 Peter tells Mayday that, in his opinion/recollection, Ben enjoyed being Spider-Man more than he ever did.

(That's Tom MerFing Defalcooooooo.)

It's pretty much canon in 616, the reason why Peter decided to retire from the role the first time was when he saw Ben being so lighthearted and able to joke in life or death situations. Peter realized he'd lost a lot of that lightness due to the trauma conga line he'd endured through the past few years of storytelling.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

It's pretty much canon in 616, the reason why Peter decided to retire from the role the first time was when he saw Ben being so lighthearted and able to joke in life or death situations. Peter realized he'd lost a lot of that lightness due to the trauma conga line he'd endured through the past few years of storytelling.

Bear in mind that this contrast between Ben being a more "lighthearted" Spidey was a result of the writers driving home their feelings that Peter had grown too old and had too much baggage and so on. So that part is an agenda forcing its thumbs on the scale rather than something organic.

Having said that, this connects well to the point about Ben and Peter mind/body debate, I think with Ben the fact that he only has Peter's memories of guilt but no memory and direct experience of failure himself is the main reason why Ben Reilly can be more light-hearted compared to Peter. Ben has the memories of letting the burglar go but Peter actually did that himself.