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  1. #106
    Mighty Member Baron of Faltine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triniking1234 View Post
    I feel like 80s T'Challa would beat 80s Wolverine since we've seen that good martial artists can take him down.

    But now T'Challa could probably borrow Mjolnir and f**k Logan up.
    As is said...the issue is becoming more and more about how street level characters do not fit a four color world, at least not as well as one could think. And is not a recent thing. Since the JL formed ages ago it was clear that Batman was a special case, as his capacities bordered reality warping to match up with people like superman or green lantern. Or villains that supposedly aren't same level as those two.
    With black Panther, and most of street level characters is the same. At least now they try to give some semi logical (as much as possible in a world where unassisted wingless flight is possible in face of ALL physics rules past, present and future) reasons.
    And back to wolvie....No one has answered my question. How would classical 80s Wolverine deal with someone like Nitro? I mean in way thatdoes not involve him instantly dying .

  2. #107
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    I love Logan to death (he is my favorite classic X-Men character) but, yeah, the current portrayal of his power level is ludicrous. Realistically against characters such as Hulk, Captain Marvel, Rogue, etc., he should stand no chance in a direct one-on-one confrontation that lasts more than a few seconds. He could likely absorb lots of damage from these powerhouses but there is no way he could win or hurt them back as much as they would hurt him (which would likely be fatal rather quickly if not for his enhanced skeleton and healing factor).
    Last edited by Celgress; 10-18-2021 at 08:18 AM.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  3. #108
    Extraordinary Member K7P5V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triniking1234 View Post
    I feel like 80s T'Challa would beat 80s Wolverine since we've seen that good martial artists can take him down.

    But now T'Challa could probably borrow Mjolnir and f**k Logan up.
    From 1982, their battle ended in a "stalemate" (LOL):
    https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Marve...mpions_Vol_1_3

    Last edited by K7P5V; 10-18-2021 at 08:34 AM. Reason: Made Adjustments.

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron of Faltine View Post
    As is said...the issue is becoming more and more about how street level characters do not fit a four color world, at least not as well as one could think. And is not a recent thing. Since the JL formed ages ago it was clear that Batman was a special case, as his capacities bordered reality warping to match up with people like superman or green lantern. Or villains that supposedly aren't same level as those two.
    With black Panther, and most of street level characters is the same. At least now they try to give some semi logical (as much as possible in a world where unassisted wingless flight is possible in face of ALL physics rules past, present and future) reasons.
    And back to wolvie....No one has answered my question. How would classical 80s Wolverine deal with someone like Nitro? I mean in way thatdoes not involve him instantly dying .
    The Wolverine who nearly died against Silver Samurai would be curbstomped by Nitro. Nitro would roll his eyes and kill that version of Wolverine with a shrug.

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelC View Post
    The Wolverine who nearly died against Silver Samurai would be curbstomped by Nitro.
    I don't necessarily see why this is a bad thing (he's even said as much when he was facing off against the Juggernaut once). Daredevil's one of my favorite characters and the fact that he isn't invincible is one of the things I like most about him. The same used to hold true for Wolverine. I remember when he first got his adamantanium ripped out from him and how vulnerable he was. The fact that he didn't let that vulnerability hold him back was what I liked most about that run. He just didn't give up. Not because he was already invincible, but because he knew he had a job to do and he wasn't going to let that vulnerability keep him from doing it. He was the unwavering underdog. That's what I miss most about him, quite frankly. Facing off against impossible odds isn't necessarily courageous when you know already know nothing can hurt you.
    "Overturn everything! Can't he just write an executive order that says: 'Everything Trump did is now overturned. F**k that guy.' signed, Joe Biden."

  6. #111
    Mighty Member Baron of Faltine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    I don't necessarily see why this is a bad thing (he's even said as much when he was facing off against the Juggernaut once). Daredevil's one of my favorite characters and the fact that he isn't invincible is one of the things I like most about him. The same used to hold true for Wolverine. I remember when he first got his adamantanium ripped out from him and how vulnerable he was. The fact that he didn't let that vulnerability hold him back was what I liked most about that run. He just didn't give up. Not because he was already invincible, but because he knew he had a job to do and he wasn't going to let that vulnerability keep him from doing it. He was the unwavering underdog. That's what I miss most about him, quite frankly. Facing off against impossible odds isn't necessarily courageous when you know already know nothing can hurt you.
    The issue here is not that. I can see your point really.
    Nonetheless remain the fact that some challenges are simply unwinnable short of a plot armor as thick as Joker's.
    There is no courage in doing something you know will kill you for sure.
    Expecially given Wolverine basic powerset that is a close combat specialist, in a world where shotguns, automatic rifles, power armor, giant robots, blasters, magic, fire breathing mofo, living explosion and people as strong that are being able to juggle trucks(full loaded truck weight roughly 22 short tons)....you see the issue here.
    Boosting his healing factor(albeit there should be some limits, as he need to re integrate the protein loss...the biomass had to come from somewhere...death by starvation and dehydration should be wolvie main weakness IMHO) was necessary to make him semi competent as superhero. I am sorry but unless you can't make even a single situation where wolvie could have won certain challenges without his healing factor, without giving up the whole close combat specialist thing....(for crying out loud no one whine about spidey danger sense even if spiders DO NOT HAVE IT, no one whine about punishers being essentially unkillable and able to shrug off the kinetic energy of bullets tha this his magic kevlar vest, no one say anything about shang chi being on yojiro hanma level as martial artist, few arise question about the logic of hawkeye...albeit he is the source of as much puns as aquaman but wolvie healing factor ohhhh nooooo)

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron of Faltine View Post
    The issue here is not that. I can see your point really.
    'Preciate it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron of Faltine View Post
    Nonetheless remain the fact that some challenges are simply unwinnable short of a plot armor as thick as Joker's.
    I mean (TBH), I think the constant boosting of Wolvie's healing factor is plot armor in itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron of Faltine View Post
    There is no courage in doing something you know will kill you for sure.
    As I said, neither is going in knowing nothing can hurt you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron of Faltine View Post
    Expecially given Wolverine basic powerset that is a close combat specialist, in a world where shotguns, automatic rifles, power armor, giant robots, blasters, magic, fire breathing mofo, living explosion and people as strong that are being able to juggle trucks(full loaded truck weight roughly 22 short tons)....you see the issue here.
    Not really. I mean, taking on threats too big for a single hero to face are the entire point of teams.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron of Faltine View Post
    Boosting his healing factor(albeit there should be some limits, as he need to re integrate the protein loss...the biomass had to come from somewhere...death by starvation and dehydration should be wolvie main weakness IMHO) was necessary to make him semi competent as superhero.
    Agree to disagree there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron of Faltine View Post
    I am sorry but unless you can't make even a single situation where wolvie could have won certain challenges without his healing factor, without giving up the whole close combat specialist thing....
    I don't see why Wolvie has to take on guys like Nitro on his own, personally. That's not a story I find particularly compelling. Like you said, he's a close quarters guy. Stories where they emphasize that tend to be my favorites.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron of Faltine View Post
    (for crying out loud no one whine about spidey danger sense even if spiders DO NOT HAVE IT
    Actually, one of my favorite stories was all about when Spidey lost his spider sense. He went in to see Night Nurse and she commented on the fact that he had never come in for a bullet would before. I really dug it until they gave him some dumb Iron Man-like armor.
    "Overturn everything! Can't he just write an executive order that says: 'Everything Trump did is now overturned. F**k that guy.' signed, Joe Biden."

  8. #113
    Mighty Member Baron of Faltine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    'Preciate it.
    No problem we just have two different point of view of the same objective problem


    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    I mean (TBH), I think the constant boosting of Wolvie's healing factor is plot armor in itself.
    Well yeah, it is, but contextualized within the rules of the universe(fast and loose rulesTBH) and not "just because"

    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    As I said, neither is going in knowing nothing can hurt you.
    True

    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    Not really. I mean, taking on threats too big for a single hero to face are the entire point of teams.
    ...
    I don't see why Wolvie has to take on guys like Nitro on his own, personally. That's not a story I find particularly compelling. Like you said, he's a close quarters guy. Stories where they emphasize that tend to be my favorites.

    Yep...that should be the right way to manage such things. That in the end is the main issue, ain't it. Why the authors insist in making heroes face ALONE and UNPREPARED challenges they have no way to survive in anyway. They literally write themselves in a corner. Is unnerving at times.

    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    Agree to disagree there.
    I don't disagree as much as i see thigns from another point of view
    Personally I don't mind that the healing factor is boosted, but perhaps they should have added some drawbakcs to compensate, like he genuibnelly risk to die from starvation, or if he heal too many times, he start losing his humanity and become a cannibalistic animal. Something like that.

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