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  1. #76
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron of Faltine View Post
    As long as ninja T'Challa can face demon gods and mad titans.
    That is the price to stay in superhero team. Batman's wouldn't need a power up nor Superman would need their power level and competence fluctuate if they are not in same team at the same moment.

    Honestly you guys fetishize the Stealth mode little too much. Unless they pack some hell of magic technique or weapon, a ninja cannot do shit to a tank..

    In rpg term....rogues are nice and dandy, but shot of natural 20 is unlikely they can't take down Tiamat.
    I mean, Ryu Hayabusa (Ninja Gaiden) does face demons in a semi regular basis. In the second game he beats many of those, even a giant undersea monsters. Ninja's magic bullshit knows no limits in fiction lol.
    "Wow. You made Spider-Man sad, congratulations. I stabbed The Hulk last week"
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  2. #77
    Mighty Member Baron of Faltine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    I mean, Ryu Hayabusa (Ninja Gaiden) does face demons in a semi regular basis. In the second game he beats many of those, even a giant undersea monsters. Ninja's magic bullshit knows no limits in fiction lol.
    Ohh I see they means "that" type of ninja, Mortals Kombat style. So the low power they meant is..."Chuck Norris in INVASION USA!" Level right?

  3. #78
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    I haven't played Ninja Gaiden since the NES trilogy. I guess Dead or Alive counts.

    Is Ryu on par with Naruto characters now?
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  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by taozen View Post
    I agree with you points particularly concerning fans of characters wanting their favorites to be OMEGA level at everything. Making a character more powerful does not make them a better or even a more interesting character. Sometimes I believe fans forget that the real interesting aspects of characters are their flaws and weaknesses. I would rather writer create interesting uses of a character powers instead of just upping their power. I remember the original "Days of Future Past" story when the sentinel killed future Wolverine with the energy blast. Then I remember in the Xavier protocol Wolverine entry it was said that the only way to ensure killing Wolverine was to drown him. You may also have cut off his head and bury it in a separate location than his body,

    Lastly the best thing that can happen to a character is to be put through the wringer. To struggle and fail miserably at something and maybe later overcome it or just survive it. It seems those days may be over for most of the X-Men characters but that is another topic all together.
    I don't know what X-Men comics you've been reading, but the past two decades have practically defined failure for them.

  5. #80
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triniking1234 View Post
    I haven't played Ninja Gaiden since the NES trilogy. I guess Dead or Alive counts.

    Is Ryu on par with Naruto characters now?
    He is at least competing with Dante and Vergil, maybe even Kratos.
    "Wow. You made Spider-Man sad, congratulations. I stabbed The Hulk last week"
    Wolverine, Venom Annual # 1 (2018)
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  6. #81
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron of Faltine View Post
    Ohh I see they means "that" type of ninja, Mortals Kombat style. So the low power they meant is..."Chuck Norris in INVASION USA!" Level right?
    Apparently not, but my point still stands, ninjas are bullshit in fiction. Daredevil whole thing is that he is trained by a really good ninja and thanks to that he can pull stuff like swatting bullets with his Billy Club and that last thing isn't something recent, he could do it since the 60s. As i said, fictional ninjas are bullshit.
    "Wow. You made Spider-Man sad, congratulations. I stabbed The Hulk last week"
    Wolverine, Venom Annual # 1 (2018)
    Nobody does it better by Jeff Loveness

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  7. #82
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    I remember how shocked I was to see Logan stabbed from Ogun in that mini series. My young mind had no explanation how Logan would survive that. I read that issue over and over.

    Years later Wolverine became so boring because doesn't matter what you do to him, he will regenerate in no time. Once my favorite Superhero, next to Spider-Man, today he is very unimportant to me.

  8. #83
    Extraordinary Member Mike_Murdock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron of Faltine View Post
    Also I just noticed everyone has problems with the healing factor, o kne has issue with Wolverine claws being essentially magic, slicing pretty much everything regardless of logan strength, momentum or opponent resistance. Or the fact that in the bronze age, like many other characters, he was revealed to be a samurai( in early 80's was either this or ninja).
    I think the difference there is his claws were always capable of slicing through anything. He had claws that could slice through anything, bones that couldn't break, and an enhanced sense of smell. He also could heal in days when it would take other people weeks. Given that, I didn't think his powers needed to be increased further.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sin Nick View Post
    If Wolverine were to back to his early days power levels, would most of you be ok with Spider-Man going back to struggling to lift a car, Iron Man back in his original armors instead of whatever nanotech he's using these days, Black Panther back in tights instead of vibranium armor or vibranium everything, Jean Grey back to a low level telekinetic and telepath, the Hulk being brought back down to MCU Hulk levels, etc. ?
    FWIW, yes. Iron Man also seems to have no real limitations due to nano tech so I'd love that scaled down. Black Panther has gone back to non-vibranium armor before with The Man Without Fear/The Most Dangerous Man Alive story arc. I think Christopher Priest did a good job making him stand out by incorporating Wakandan technology more freely but it also basically makes it seem like any time Iron Man can do something that T'Challa can't, it's because T'Challa chooses not to. He also used to rely far more on stealth and agility. Regardless of his armor, I think that's important for someone modeled after a Panther. For Jean Grey, she has both telepathy and telekinesis so I tend to feel like she works best as a jack of all trades. I don't want her telekinesis to be stronger than Magneto's magnetism, for example. That being said, I like her having both powers and wouldn't want her to go back to just TK (although that's been used effectively in the past).
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  9. #84
    ...of the Black Priests Midnight_v's Avatar
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    No. Not unless you really don't care for Wolverine.

    My first interaction with him was "Oh so this is the guy you send to reel in the hulk" . . . fight the wendigo, or juggernaut ....
    ANNNNNND a host of sentinels. Guy fights giants and often wins.
    Not to mention seeing him get blows rained down on him by spider man. and in the OG "Nuff said" like killing the whole hellfire club.

    So no his power level is on par with everyone else. Unless you REALLY don't care for the guy a lot of people don't and that stems at least in part from:
    "I hate this guys popularity, and his legion of "Fans". Its just something coming from a really envious place.
    Which is weird but one thing someone said really stuck out to me "Even if they never created batman that doesn't mean *Your favorite* would be more popular."


    All that being said; here's the important part. Tl;Dr if you would.

    "Wolverines durability, NEEDS to be roughly lockstep with the HULKS durability"

    For a lot of stories to make any narrative sense. The way the op states this title it sounds almost as if these powers are recent but hell some of this durability has been around
    for 25 or 30 years or more now.

    He not BECOMING more powerful. He just has some of the best durability around, plus a strong weapon in the claws. Which let him punch way above his strength level.

    No blood no foul
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  10. #85
    Original CBR member Jabare's Avatar
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    No when people think of Wolverine you think of the iconic comic stories. You think of The X-men movies you think of X-men the animated series.

    Wolverine is the guy with the deep past. The occasional edgy loaner (think Raphael). He’s that short dude who is a beast and will bring that fight to your doorstep. He goes up against a guy like Sabertooth who is physically bigger, stronger and has the same power set. Yet he holds his own.

    He isn’t in the same weight class as magneto. He can survive the Hulk (who’s stats have also shot up to Superman levels over the years) thanks to his healing factor and adamantium skeleton. Wolverine has like a 5% chance of beating the Hulk (stabs him in his brain or something, assuming the Hulk can’t survive that).

    A sentinel is suppose to be a team wrecker. People not on Magneto’s level shouldn’t be soloing Sentinels.

    If you keep Wolverine consistent it allows you to put him in a myriad of stories just like Spider-man.

    Given how comics prefer to keep long running status quo’s you can’t have some characters evolve like a shonen hero.

    Since Wolverine’s introduction he evolved into an incredibly popular character in the 90s and 2000s. Marvel needs to keep that essence. He’s gonna have some over the top moments in his solos, that happens to many characters, but he can’t turn into Thor or Spawn. Keep him as he is and work within that structure, unless they intend to age the character
    The J-man

  11. #86
    Mighty Member Baron of Faltine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_Murdock View Post
    I think the difference there is his claws were always capable of slicing through anything. He had claws that could slice through anything, bones that couldn't break, and an enhanced sense of smell. He also could heal in days when it would take other people weeks. Given that, I didn't think his powers needed to be increased further.



    FWIW, yes. Iron Man also seems to have no real limitations due to nano tech so I'd love that scaled down. Black Panther has gone back to non-vibranium armor before with The Man Without Fear/The Most Dangerous Man Alive story arc. I think Christopher Priest did a good job making him stand out by incorporating Wakandan technology more freely but it also basically makes it seem like any time Iron Man can do something that T'Challa can't, it's because T'Challa chooses not to. He also used to rely far more on stealth and agility. Regardless of his armor, I think that's important for someone modeled after a Panther. For Jean Grey, she has both telepathy and telekinesis so I tend to feel like she works best as a jack of all trades. I don't want her telekinesis to be stronger than Magneto's magnetism, for example. That being said, I like her having both powers and wouldn't want her to go back to just TK (although that's been used effectively in the past).
    The issue here is something related to a discussion that is going around amongst many comic book boards, reddit and discord. That superheroes is not a genre...is a medium.
    That within this medium the same characters can fit many many genres, following their rules.
    One discussion pointed how Batman-at this point the benchmark of concept of superhero- had covered many many roles, and while the basics are always the same the Batman from an hard-core horror story is not the same that shot darkness, faced amazo, fought the xenonomorph, the predators and crossed over with freaking scoobydoo..the stat block so to speak is tweaked to fit the "genre".
    So Daredevil and Wolverine get upped and lowered depending on the story. One moment a sword is serious menace in a chambarra story, in another they fade hail of bullets like they are not even a thing. In another a simply muscular man with chainsaw or circular saw(curious how THAT happened to both of them quite regularly...odd) is a challenging tasks...and the next time they are fighting Juggernaut. One day is streetgangs, the day after time to wrestle a cosmic herald. And is mandatory for EVERY SINGLE MARVEL HERO regardless of powers to face a pissed off Hulk...or a very nervous Bruce Banner.
    So yeah...Power level, in manga, anime, Western comics and whatever are just a funny thing to talk about, but in the end....they are bullshit...
    Perhaps in roleplaying games they are more strictly followed....but again there is always natural 20 to screw things

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sin Nick View Post
    If Wolverine were to back to his early days power levels, would most of you be ok with Spider-Man going back to struggling to lift a car, Iron Man back in his original armors instead of whatever nanotech he's using these days, Black Panther back in tights instead of vibranium armor or vibranium everything, Jean Grey back to a low level telekinetic and telepath, the Hulk being brought back down to MCU Hulk levels, etc. ?
    Here's the thing: Spider-Man was 15 years old. It makes sense he would naturally get stronger as he matures. Iron Man is a technology based character. His armor's tech will progress accordingly. Panther comes from a nation that has the world's only vibranium. Jean Grey was given in universe reasons for power upgrades as was Hulk.

    Wolverine as a fictional character has a backstory where he has lived 100+ years. The only thing that happened that increased his healing ability in universe was having his adamantium ripped out by Magneto. Then it was restored. And yet the insane healing remains, even though it is still very much canon that the adamantium is toxic and reduces his healing. It quite literally never made sense.

  13. #88
    ...of the Black Priests Midnight_v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabare View Post
    No when people think of Wolverine you think of the iconic comic stories. You think of The X-men movies you think of X-men the animated series.

    Wolverine is the guy with the deep past. The occasional edgy loaner (think Raphael). HeÂ’s that short dude who is a beast and will bring that fight to your doorstep. He goes up against a guy like Sabertooth who is physically bigger, stronger and has the same power set. Yet he holds his own.

    He isnÂ’t in the same weight class as magneto. He can survive the Hulk (whoÂ’s stats have also shot up to Superman levels over the years) thanks to his healing factor and adamantium skeleton. Wolverine has like a 5% chance of beating the Hulk (stabs him in his brain or something, assuming the Hulk canÂ’t survive that).

    A sentinel is suppose to be a team wrecker. People not on MagnetoÂ’s level shouldnÂ’t be soloing Sentinels.

    If you keep Wolverine consistent it allows you to put him in a myriad of stories just like Spider-man.

    Given how comics prefer to keep long running status quoÂ’s you canÂ’t have some characters evolve like a shonen hero.

    Since WolverineÂ’s introduction he evolved into an incredibly popular character in the 90s and 2000s. Marvel needs to keep that essence. HeÂ’s gonna have some over the top moments in his solos, that happens to many characters, but he canÂ’t turn into Thor or Spawn. Keep him as he is and work within that structure, unless they intend to age the character
    No.

    We're a bit passed that. He's ALREADY depicted as getting thrown by COLOSSUS at sentinels. Thats NOT in the solo books. There are at this point MORE stories and references to him being some indestructible thing.
    He's not "Turning into Thor" he's been fighting Monsters since forever. The only people that tend to down play that seriously just doing it out of hate for his popularity. Its kinda ridiculous.

    Hes a guy who can shrug off punches from hulk and wendigo and the thing. He's been that way. He's not a planet tipper but he's just not a street level hero either and I think... I think thats what people are realizing.

    A sentinel is suppose to be a team wrecker. People not on MagnetoÂ’s level shouldnÂ’t be soloing Sentinels.
    Thats just... Thats just patently wrong. Baseline sentinels actually are trash mobs. He kills them the way he kills ninjas this happens... ... ... right up until master mold and nimrod models. Most of the sentinels people recognize aren't "Super-adaptoids" or "Ultrons" even. They're don't have nullifier powers standard so its like they win mostly by overwhelm and swarm tactics till we get to one of those "Dark Futures".

    If you google wolverine vs sentinals and click images you'll get a good rendition of what popular opinion of that match up is.

    Moreover, If we're going of the conception of "popular opinion" well thats kinda dictated by the next big example of the guy cause memories are short. If you watched 90s' X-men, hes more more indestructible, more like the comics, if you watch Jackman only you think hes a guy who's kinda tough and has claws... except he can heal burns from the Phoenix instantly so theres that.

    You can keep him consistent thats fine, but hes consistently on a Higher Tier than people want to give him credit for on these forums.

    Wolverine is at base.
    A 190 year-old semi-ageless assassin and soldier, who has been through every major conflict since the Civil and/or Spanish American war through Vietnam, and the blood-soaked CIA wet works of the cold wars, and on into the gulf war just to help his buddies from time to time. Spent years in Japan, but also travelled around the world mastering like every major martial art form not to mention infinite bar brawls. NOW MOST of that was BEFORE the adamantium skeleton thing.
    Let that sink in. Just everybody seriously. All those wars, all that killing, all those injuries... about One-hundred and 40 years or so.... and THEN they took him and gave him an adamantium Skeleton, and laced his claws.
    FOH. Nobody "REALLY" has a problem with this dude being "Op"(hell Wonderman is KNOWN to Pwn him pretty regularly.).

    People only gotta problem with him cause they hate his fans but moreso the Contextual Narrative he represents when it comes to the Hyper-Masculine Cowboy Archetype. He's Marvels Batman. Its always gonna be some salt there.

    So for the people who AREN'T in that camp, because that may very well not be you.... Keep in mind this visual.

    From the VERY beginning. This guys tier was such that he stood toe to toe with Hulk, and Wendigo. He scarred Ben Grimms face for a Decade. He Kills Hundreds of Sentinels and THOUSANDS of Soldiers and Ninjas.
    His tagline is "I'm the best there is at what I do, but what I do isn't very nice..." and the "I'm the best" is always gonna generate hate. Still, he relatively HAS to be on a tier of power scaled to the hulk, because that who he's always been a rival to. Lots of things at marvel really become a joke if thats not the case. Some people would really be cool with that, but I think Narrative sense has to trump feelings at some point.
    My priority is enjoying and supporting stories of timeless heroism and conflict.
    Everything else is irrelevant.

  14. #89
    Cosmic Curmudgeon JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davew128 View Post
    Wolverine as a fictional character has a backstory where he has lived 100+ years. The only thing that happened that increased his healing ability in universe was having his adamantium ripped out by Magneto. Then it was restored. And yet the insane healing remains, even though it is still very much canon that the adamantium is toxic and reduces his healing. It quite literally never made sense.
    Excellent post.
    “The brave man lives until the coward wants.” ~ Mexican proverb

  15. #90
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabare View Post
    His healing factor is stronger than it ever was. He’s become a better fighter because of his long lifespan, some writers have thrown in martial arts masteries that I don’t think for his style.
    Well, Marvel just says he's some martial arts master, in practice, he generally just slashes at random and wins battles by attrition 'cause of his broken healing lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    I mean, Ryu Hayabusa (Ninja Gaiden) does face demons in a semi regular basis. In the second game he beats many of those, even a giant undersea monsters. Ninja's magic bullshit knows no limits in fiction lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by Triniking1234 View Post
    I haven't played Ninja Gaiden since the NES trilogy. I guess Dead or Alive counts.

    Is Ryu on par with Naruto characters now?
    He summoned a fire dragon or something in in Ninja Gaiden 3: Razor's Edge, so yeah, he's not that different from a Naruto ninja in that regard lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    He is at least competing with Dante and Vergil, maybe even Kratos.
    I want to disagree but... Yeah, he busted.

    Guess you have to become super powerful if you manage to survive those NES games .

    Anyways, since Wolverine fighting the Hulk in his debut was mentioned to say he was always super tough, I decided to check out that battle, and mostly, Wolverine just dodges, this is the only time Hulk hits him:





    (Incredible Hulk#181)

    He dodges just enough to avoid most of the punch's impact, and his stamina is how he survived just that "scratch", so while Wolverine was always tough since his debut, he definitely couldn't actually tank Hulk's attacks as much as he does now, since just a scratch knocked him down immediately lol.

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