Are Jean Grey and Dark Phoenix two different characters?

[darkalamator]

The discussion comes from the top 5 Female Villains thread. I am of the opinion Dark Phoenix is not a different character. It is Phoenix (JG thus) doing Dark deeds. But it is better we have a different discussion about the matter on its own.

[LordAllMIghty]

Jean was in a cocoon during the whole Dark Phoenix storyline. Now with that being said. The psychic of the Phoenix was based on Jean, so a case could be made that Jean was the reason the Dark Phoenix turned evil.

[Mike_Murdock]

I mean, canonically, yes. They're separate people. But Phoenix as Jean Grey had all of Jean Grey's memories and personality when she formed and, after she died, Jean Grey got all of Phoenix's memories from when she was in her shoes. So it's OK to discuss them as the same person in that sense, but the evidence can't be argued with. It's clearly stated in Fantastic Four #286.

[CuteClops]

The retcon in Fantastic Four # 286 was undone in AvX. Jean and the Phoenix were the same.

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[lurkerforyears]

I prefer to think of Phoenix and Jean as different characters. At best, Phoenix took the psychological properties of Jean-was imprinted on by Jean.

I see the Phoenix as something like a Symbiote who is as strong as Galactus

[Ambaryerno]

Ultimately it depends on which retcon we're on.

[Hizashi]

Ultimately it depends on which retcon we're on.

Yeah, basically. I doubt even Marvel themselves could adequately answer this question right now.

[PrezValentine]

I don't think so. Dark Phoenix is something that happens when you have Jean + The Phoenix Force, it's not just Jean's darker side suddenly coming to life.

Ultimately it depends on which retcon we're on.

This, however, is something important to consider.

[jorge17881]

Well, i say no, because is still Jean after all, she acepted all what the she did in that moment, when she lose the control. And i really glad that she did that though, because quite patetic say that is her, when is good but when you do something bad is the fault of the phoenix... like cyclops he kill charles but some of his fans say that "it was the phoenix not him".

Edit: and don't forget that emma and mastermind have part of the fault too.

[Gray Lensman]

Ultimately it depends on which retcon we're on.

Quoted for truth! Very little is a constant with the Retcon Force. It manifests as a flaming bird, it's power is off the charts, it's tied to Jean Grey (or people who look like her), people with it don't act the same, and before it's over someone is either gonna die or return from the dead. All else seems negotiable.

[Minerboh]

The retcon in Fantastic Four # 286 was undone in AvX. Jean and the Phoenix were the same.

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And that from the guy who wrote that Xavier was married with Mystique...

[PhoenixStudies]

To me, the story is only meaningful if it is about the real Jean Grey. The original story was that Jean became Phoenix and later Dark Phoenix.

Even with the retcon, a portion (in some telling, all but a spark, others just a spark) of Jean's memories/consciousness/soul was transferred/absorbed/borrowed/imbued/merged into the Phoenix. From the retcon perspective, the Jean Grey/Phoenix character was a new being resulting from a merger of elements (consciousness, power) from Jean Grey and the Force. In Inferno, what was borrowed from Jean was returned to her. It was never really true that the Force simply impersonated her. Marvel Girl, Phoenix, and Madelyne were more akin to Multiple Man and his Dupes in that they were all derived from the same source material and eventually recombines.

[Hizashi]

Well, i say no, because is still Jean after all, she acepted all what the she did in that moment, when she lose the control. And i really glad that she did that though, because quite patetic say that is her, when is good but when you do something bad is the fault of the phoenix... like cyclops he kill charles but some of his fans say that "it was the phoenix not him".

Edit: and don't forget that emma and mastermind have part of the fault too.

As one of the Cyclops fans you've mentioned, I really only care about consistency. I wish Marvel cared about consistency as well.

[PhoenixStudies]

Well, i say no, because is still Jean after all, she acepted all what the she did in that moment, when she lose the control. And i really glad that she did that though, because quite patetic say that is her, when is good but when you do something bad is the fault of the phoenix... like cyclops he kill charles but some of his fans say that "it was the phoenix not him".

Edit: and don't forget that emma and mastermind have part of the fault too.

And Xavier...





Fans often forget that Dark Phoenix's phoenix raptor was almost always Jean's pink psi-energy. It was as green Phoenix that she manifested the cosmic flame version of the phoenix raptor. Although even in the green costume, it was sometimes her pink psychic energy.

[PhoenixStudies]

Pardon the back to back posts, but there is a limit to how many pics can be in a single post.

Xavier having put psychic blocks in Jean's childhood mind caused her to achieve her potential too quickly when she was on the shuttle. If her power levels had developed naturally, she would have been able to handle the rushes better. Of course, Mastermind and the Hellfire Club also manipulated and corrupted her mind, leading the the creation of Dark Phoenix.

The original explanation for the Phoenix was given in Uncanny 125 and it was just Jean's full potential as a psionic.