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  1. #1
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    Default Is Jean Grey responsible for the actions taken by the two clones made of her?

    I asked this on Twitter and have received some interesting responses, so, I thought this could make for a thought-provoking discussion here. I wanted to get the thoughts of the entire community.

    Is Jean Grey responsible for the actions taken by the clones (i.e., Phoenix/Dark Phoenix, from the 𝑃ℎ𝑜𝑒𝑛𝑖𝑥 𝑆𝑎𝑔𝑎 and 𝐷𝑎𝑟𝑘 𝑃ℎ𝑜𝑒𝑛𝑖𝑥 𝑆𝑎𝑔𝑎, and Madelyne Pryor) that were fashioned after her and animated using the exact same fragment of her essence?

    Consider:






  2. #2
    Fantastic Member PyroFN's Avatar
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    In the court of law, no. She isn’t. Even if we went by the original concept of Jean being Phoenix as a show of her true potential, it would not hold up based on the grounds of insanity.

    By the concept of morality and ethics? No. The Phoenix may have asked Jean to make a deal with it, but she was more or less in a time of crisis where the lives of her friends were in jeopardy. Sinister didn’t even ask Jean when it came to Madelyne.

    As for the result of Phoenix giving Madelyne life, that was done by Jean subconsciously. Not consciously.

    Aside from Sinister and the Hellfire Club, there really is no one to prosecute in regards to taking responsibility for the damage done. Jean is not responsible for the actions of others and did her best to fight the wrongs done by them and the Phoenix Force is a sentient force of nature. Asking it to take any responsibility is like asking a hurricane to take responsibility for the lives of others.

  3. #3
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PyroFN View Post
    As for the result of Phoenix giving Madelyne life, that was done by Jean subconsciously. Not consciously.
    I disagree with this point; the rest I agree with. As evidenced on the page in my original post, Jean only rejected the fragment, she didn't subconsciously direct it to animate Madelyne.

  4. #4
    Incredible Member Exodus's Avatar
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    What retcon should we believe?

    I think Morrison's interpretation of the Phoenix clearly has shown that Phoenix was Jean Grey through and through. After being killed Jean is reborn within a Phoenix egg/cocoon. There was no clone.

  5. #5
    Fantastic Member Starchilde's Avatar
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    I, personally, chose to view the retcon by the way it was presented in Classic X-Men because it makes the most sense to me while not robbing Jean from her own history. So for me the "Jean-Phonenix" from Claremont was not merely a clone, the body may have been a duplicate but the soul(and mind) was hers (a part of her soul, but hers. She only left a portion of it in the cocoon to keep her burned body healing). When Jean took back that part and re-absorbed the memories, I see that as Jean reuninting her whole soul, with the bad memories and Dark Phoenix and all. It depends on the writer if their Jean is going to see the Phoenix saga as hers or not. I prefer those that write a Jean that does accept it as her own, or at least as something that a part of her experienced and did. I think this story has been so convulted through comics that there's not an entirely right or wrong answer, but I personally prefer a Jean that owns that saga as hers, with the bad and good parts and the consequences of it. She already suffered many consequences for it.

    In the case of Madelyne I do not agree. It's also a convulted story between the two and I don't know how much of the canon presented in Inferno still stands now (like, does Jean still has Madelyne's memories? Madelyne and Jean have coexisted recently and I don't think it caused any consequences "mentally" for Jean. I don't know, but I hope that if they bring Maddy back they clear that issue and finally close it). I think that Madelyne and Jean should be established as totally separated persons, the bad stuff both of them have done, be their own separated past.
    Last edited by Starchilde; 10-07-2021 at 10:34 PM.

  6. #6
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exodus View Post
    What retcon should we believe?
    However much we may dislike or disagree with it, we should always go by the last update on any character regarding any given aspect of their life and history.

  7. #7
    LET JEAN GREY BE FREE! Kitty&Piotr<3's Avatar
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    Depends.

    Modern canon is relentlessly insistent on stripping Jean of her connection and history with the Phoenix. Under modern canon, Jean's abusive boyfriend, the Phoenix Force, made her do some bad stuff a couple of years after it had sex with Thor's dad. Jean had nothing to do with it.

    If you go by the better, female-centric, Jean-centric, non-canon interpretation/revision of the story, the Dark Phoenix was essentially Jean, and she had a destructive moment of human weakness while ascending to godhood and is ultimately responsible for what happened.

    But 2021 canonically? Not her fault at all and no connection to it whatsoever.

    As for Maddie, Jean doesn't hold any responsibility or owe any responsibility. She was entirely a victim herself. Ultimately, Maddie diverged from just being a clone the moment something happened to her that didn't happen to Jean, which was immediate.
    Last edited by Kitty&Piotr<3; 10-07-2021 at 11:00 PM.
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  8. #8
    The Best There Is Wolverine12's Avatar
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    She’s having nightmares about it in X-Men next week. I think that’s all the proof we need that she at least feels guilty herself. I can’t speak knowledgeably about her time as Dark Phoenix, I’ve read the DPS but I haven’t read any of the retcons that made her “less attached.” From what I know a big part of her was in there with the Phoenix and she’s carried that burden ever since.
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  9. #9
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine12 View Post
    She’s having nightmares about it in X-Men next week. I think that’s all the proof we need that she at least feels guilty herself. I can’t speak knowledgeably about her time as Dark Phoenix, I’ve read the DPS but I haven’t read any of the retcons that made her “less attached.” From what I know a big part of her was in there with the Phoenix and she’s carried that burden ever since.
    True, but it was established that she absorbed the memories of both the Phoenix Force and Sinister clones of her, i.e., Phoenix/Dark Phoenix and Madelyne Pryor. Those memories are still a part of her memory bank, so, her having nightmares centered on these memories doesn’t contradict canon. Also, remember, that “big part of her,” which was a fragment equivalent to less than what she needed to operate as herself after her return and in X-Factor leading up to Inferno, was the same fragment of her essence that animated both clones.

    It is difficult for one to justify that Jean was Phoenix/Dark Phoenix while simultaneously saying she was not Madelyne Pryor during Inferno. Both were clones of her imbued with the same exact fragment of her psyche, no more, no less.

  10. #10
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    Personally I don't think so, but it's peculiar that in UXM 508-511,Maddie wanted to transfer her spirit to animate the remains of Jean Grey as that was the only way she could walk the earth. Which makes one wonder are they ultimately bonded even as identical physical bodies like with a psychic link? She certainly didn't expect a body-soul rejection like organ rejection in our world and it's not surprising as she's a clone but still got me wondering.I think if she succeeded to do the transfer,it would go a long way to help answer this curiosity for me. Alas I'll never know

  11. #11
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starchilde View Post
    I, personally, chose to view the retcon by the way it was presented in Classic X-Men because it makes the most sense to me while not robbing Jean from her own history. So for me the "Jean-Phonenix" from Claremont was not merely a clone, the body may have been a duplicate but the soul(and mind) was hers (a part of her soul, but hers. She only left a portion of it in the cocoon to keep her burned body healing). When Jean took back that part and re-absorbed the memories, I see that as Jean reuninting her whole soul, with the bad memories and Dark Phoenix and all. It depends on the writer if their Jean is going to see the Phoenix saga as hers or not. I prefer those that write a Jean that does accept it as her own, or at least as something that a part of her experienced and did. I think this story has been so convulted through comics that there's not an entirely right or wrong answer, but I personally prefer a Jean that owns that saga as hers, with the bad and good parts and the consequences of it. She already suffered many consequences for it.

    In the case of Madelyne I do not agree. It's also a convulted story between the two and I don't know how much of the canon presented in Inferno still stands now (like, does Jean still has Madelyne's memories? Madelyne and Jean have coexisted recently and I don't think it caused any consequences "mentally" for Jean. I don't know, but I hope that if they bring Maddy back they clear that issue and finally close it). I think that Madelyne and Jean should be established as totally separated persons, the bad stuff both of them have done, be their own separated past.
    I thought Jean lost most of the Maddie stuff in the space arc during X-Factor. The one where Ship gets called by the Celestials to a planet where everyone has powers and are part of three warring factions. When the Celestial leave at the end they take Maddie's and Phoenix's personalities with them, but I can't say anything about the memories.
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  12. #12
    Incredible Member Agatha's Ghost's Avatar
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    She is currently a clone of herself who considers herself the same person who died at the hands of Orchis, so why shouldn’t she also be responsible for the previous clones?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agatha's Ghost View Post
    She is currently a clone of herself who considers herself the same person who died at the hands of Orchis, so why shouldn’t she also be responsible for the previous clones?
    My deduction is for the sake of story consistency life 10 i.e Jean who died in Orchis and Jean leading the X-Men although living through two distinct iterations of herself is still in one continuum because as long as Moira lives it's one reality.The way Moira is framed is her different lives resulting in different resets means those are separate and unique continuums.So basically what you say makes for example the presumption that Maddie going through what we know historically happened in any of the other lives Moira had. The difference is while Jean because of the rigours of Krakoa's protocols does not interact with another iteration in the same moment.While in say life 7 or 5 she did.To add to the complexity we know Hickman acknowledges the existence of the phoenix force in this universe.I presume it exists irrespective of whether Moira exists/doesnt or resets reality.The phoenix does not exist because of Moira ,it exists outside of Moira and therefore it's possible that just like two Vulcans exist in this reality, then Maddie and Jean could also have existed both having shared memories through the Phoenix ,that in this case could transpose or 'transcribe' memories of Jean from one iteration to another even across different continuums. Don't take my word for it , and it's not backed up by the comics but theoretically could be possible when we look at how the Moira mini multiverse works.
    Last edited by Rev9; 10-08-2021 at 03:29 AM.

  14. #14
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agatha's Ghost View Post
    She is currently a clone of herself who considers herself the same person who died at the hands of Orchis, so why shouldn’t she also be responsible for the previous clones?
    This is simple to answer: Jean's current cloned body houses her entire psyche, whereas the aforementioned clones, i.e., Phoenix and Madelyne, only housed a fragment of her psyche.

    As for what Rev9 is trying to say, Destiny was more succinct in her explanation:




  15. #15
    Extraordinary Member jwatson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    However much we may dislike or disagree with it, we should always go by the last update on any character regarding any given aspect of their life and history.
    If we are going by canon, history of the mu book makes it clear phoenix jean was not a clone but rather an exact duplicate so phoenix jean is closer to what we have in the current run with mutants coming back. Maddie on the other hand was a clone who had a flash of Jean memory when her friend died but didn't have any of Jean other members so i would say while a strong case could be made for Jean being responsible for what her duplicate did i would say no to both.
    Last edited by jwatson; 10-08-2021 at 03:57 AM.
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