Originally Posted by
BobbysWorld
Nope. No matter how much nature plays a part in who we are, its impossible to separate nurture from who we become either. We are at least in part the product of our experiences, like if you think about something you did that had a specific reason and then go what if the thing that prompted/inspired that reason had never happened and that line of reasoning thus never entered your brain, would you have still done the thing that you had done for a specific reason that no longer exists? LOL.
Like, yes, Jean is part of the Phoenix and Maddy, there are elements of her, but they stopped being JUST Jean the second they began having experiences she didn't and thus their actions and reasoning and choices at least in part began based on things that were in the original playbook based on just all things her. She's CAUSALLY part of some of the choices the Phoenix or Maddy made, but not in terms of having any ability to direct their actions, more in the vein of a formative influence.
But while there are some things that lead people to be held accountable for the actions of others who they influenced in some sizable way, there's a key ingredient in those situations which is that in every single one I can think of, the person who held a formative influence on someone's action and thus is blamed to some degree as in 'they never would have done those things if you hadn't influenced them in this way'.....like, the key element here is that influence being later held accountable, was AWARE AND COGNIZANT of the influence they had on that other person. We're talking about parents, teachers, employers, etc......people who have to at least some degree chosen and held an awareness that they're a formative influence impacting someone else's decision making process.
And that's a key thing here for me.....even if there are things Phoenix and Maddy did that are born of Jean's influence, of 'pieces of her' that are a part of them.....Jean had absolutely NOTHING to do with the choice to shape or influence two beings derived from her. She had nothing to do with Maddy's creation, and thus literally no ability prior to when they met to have any influence that was deliberate on her part, chosen, something she did with intent and full knowledge that it could or would impact Maddy's decision making process. Same thing with the Phoenix. Even if Jean on some level chose to merge with it or open herself up to it and thus become the blueprint for who it became when it took her place and based itself on her....that was a decision made in the heat of urgency in order to save lives, and no reason to believe she had any idea the Phoenix would base elements of itself off of her - and thus she again had no active role in influencing it. And so for me it becomes, how do you hold someone accountable even just for being an influence in someone else acting a certain way - if at no point do you ever have an option to OPT OUT of being that influence OR to consciously shape that influence?
Choice is what drives responsibility, and Jean didn't choose for these two beings to be based on her and her own choices, and after their creation she at best was a voice who could try and persuade them to do or not do certain things.
But whatever the Phoenix and Maddy did in their own lives once separate from Jean, whatever choices they made, Jean can't be held accountable IMO if she literally at no point had an ability to choose otherwise FOR them, to override or veto or stop the choice they were making. How can she be responsible for a choice she didn't have the power to make or unmake, because it wasn't her choice? And as far as things Maddy or Phoenix did or choices made that were at least in part influenced by Jean's own actual existence.....as long as that was still just a PART of it, then its equally significant that part of that choice or action was also based on experiences Maddy or the Phoenix had SEPARATE from Jean and that Jean didn't actually have herself and thus weren't an influence in her own choices.....because if Jean wasn't making those same choices, in part BECAUSE the things that led Phoenix or Maddy to make those choices were experiences that weren't a part of the sum total that is Jean herself....again, same issue. How can Jean be responsible for someone who's decision making she has no control over choosing to make decisions that Jean wouldn't make?
Jean's Jean and Maddy's Maddy. Logan is Logan and Laura is Laura and Gabby is Gabby. We don't talk about these characters interchangeably and they're treated as individuals within the comics, even if in some cases they're genetically identical or based off each other or made from each other's very DNA.....because they still are written and treated as having their own lives, their own agency, and constantly making choices that are different from each other's. Because they're different people, no matter how they started out, and only the person who makes an actual choice that they and they alone have the power to make or choose not to make - assuming they're not actually being coerced or their power to make choices isn't being hijacked or overridden by someone else with mind control or even something like blackmail or threatening to kill a loved one if they don't do this thing whether like it or not - is ultimately responsible for the choice that nobody made them make, or that nobody actually had the power to stop them from making.
And that's not the case with Jean, Maddy and the Phoenix. She might have been part of the puzzle, an ingredient in the pot, but the second they stopped being JUST Jean and became someone else with their own agency and a decision-making ability that didn't run through Jean and require her approval or have an option to veto.....their choices stopped being a reflection of what she would do in that same situation, or her responsibility.