Is Jean Grey responsible for the actions taken by the two clones made of her?

[Triniking1234]

This **** is starting to sound like Kingdom Hearts.

[Tank]

This **** is starting to sound like Kingdom Hearts.

I never played Kingdom Hearts. Can you explain the similarity?

[Triniking1234]

I never played Kingdom Hearts. Can you explain the similarity?

In Kingdom Hearts, a person's heart can exist as its own living being and there are also beings that exist that don't have hearts for some case-by-case reason.

[Tank]

In Kingdom Hearts, a person's heart can exist as its own living being and there are also beings that exist that don't have hearts for some case-by-case reason.

Interesting!! I play magic the gathering so I see parallels to that lol.

There is a problem with counterfeits and proxies, but people bring up a good point. If the counterfeit card is made so well and perfect that people can’t distinguish between the two, the counterfeit and original are essentially the same.

Obviously, Jean’s situation is more nuanced than that, but the base comparison undeniable. And it’s even more apparent with Krakoa essentially being new bodies merged with their minds/memories and it’s still considered the actual character. Why would the Jean/Phoenix merge in the original saga be any different.

[Starchilde]

Obviously, Jean’s situation is more nuanced than that, but the base comparison undeniable. And it’s even more apparent with Krakoa essentially being new bodies merged with their minds/memories and it’s still considered the actual character. Why would the Jean/Phoenix merge in the original saga be any different.

Exactly, I think is a really similar situation. Jean was just ahead of her time(?)

[Tank]

Exactly, I think is a really similar situation. Jean was just ahead of her time(?)

For real though lol. She even had the eggs before Krakoa.

[Omega_DCD]

For real though lol. She even had the eggs before Krakoa.

Yep, I said this when HOX/POX first reveal the resurrection protocols...even the Shi'ar logic diamonds smack of Jean's holempathic memorial crystal that was made for her after her death.

[Wiccan]

Phoenix!Jean is really Jean. She's honestly no different from the current Krakoan Jean, in the sense that she's not Jean's original body or mind but a perfect copy of it. The only difference is that back in the 80's the narrative went with the idea that it didn't count as her, while the current era says the mutants resurrected through the protocols do count as the same person.

The Classic X-Men backup that shows how it actually happened, introduces the idea that Jean's soul was divided, a part of it in her original body and a part of it in the new one. You see Jean's dialogue seamlessly transition from her old dying body to the new one made by the Phoenix. And then in Inferno, they also introduce the idea that after Dark Phoenix's death, the missing part of her soul was supposed to go back to her original body in the coccoon, along with all the memories, to make Jean "whole" again, and she should've come back remembering her time as Phoenix.

To me this was all clearly Claremont's way of trying to make his Jean count, as much as he could with the retcon that editorial was enforcing. Even after Simonson wrote the story where Jean expels the Phoenix shard and loses the Phoenix/Madelyne's personalities, and says that the memories were now distant and not really like her, when Claremont got into X-Factor again he went and wrote a scene where Jean is in the moon and says something like "It shouldn't, but the memory it's mine, and it's real, I remember with every fiber of my being, this is where I died!", establishing that she actually does remember her Phoenix self as if it was her.

I think at least part of the problem is that, back at that time, the writers didn't quite make a differentation between Phoenix as in Phoenix Force, the cosmic entity, and Phoenix, the Jean Grey "clone" that hosted the force and went by Phoenix. They acted like it was just the Phoenix "impersonating" Jean, when in reality, it was still the Phoenix Force inside a host.

Now, Madelyne: The fact that she only woke up with the part of Jean's soul that was missing does help make a case against her. But even after Jean reabsorbed that, she has managed to come back, meaning she does somehow still exist as a separate person. Besides that, she had her own set of memories (fake, but still) and a different personality, not to mention her own life experiences from the moment she was created to now.

TLDR: Phoenix!Jean from Phoenix Saga is Jean. Madelyne is not.

[Starchilde]

Yep, I said this when HOX/POX first reveal the resurrection protocols...even the Shi'ar logic diamonds smack of Jean's holempathic memorial crystal that was made for her after her death.

Xavier watched Jean having her travestry of death and resurrection and took notes.

[D.Z]

Those clones have their own souls. Regular Jean Grey soul just follows her new clone bodys post resurrections.

They explained how it works in one of those Scarlet Spiders books.

[Tank]

Phoenix!Jean is really Jean. She's honestly no different from the current Krakoan Jean, in the sense that she's not Jean's original body or mind but a perfect copy of it. The only difference is that back in the 80's the narrative went with the idea that it didn't count as her, while the current era says the mutants resurrected through the protocols do count as the same person.

The Classic X-Men backup that shows how it actually happened, introduces the idea that Jean's soul was divided, a part of it in her original body and a part of it in the new one. You see Jean's dialogue seamlessly transition from her old dying body to the new one made by the Phoenix. And then in Inferno, they also introduce the idea that after Dark Phoenix's death, the missing part of her soul was supposed to go back to her original body in the coccoon, along with all the memories, to make Jean "whole" again, and she should've come back remembering her time as Phoenix.

To me this was all clearly Claremont's way of trying to make his Jean count, as much as he could with the retcon that editorial was enforcing. Even after Simonson wrote the story where Jean expels the Phoenix shard and loses the Phoenix/Madelyne's personalities, and says that the memories were now distant and not really like her, when Claremont got into X-Factor again he went and wrote a scene where Jean is in the moon and says something like "It shouldn't, but the memory it's mine, and it's real, I remember with every fiber of my being, this is where I died!", establishing that she actually does remember her Phoenix self as if it was her.

I think at least part of the problem is that, back at that time, the writers didn't quite make a differentation between Phoenix as in Phoenix Force, the cosmic entity, and Phoenix, the Jean Grey "clone" that hosted the force and went by Phoenix. They acted like it was just the Phoenix "impersonating" Jean, when in reality, it was still the Phoenix Force inside a host.

Now, Madelyne: The fact that she only woke up with the part of Jean's soul that was missing does help make a case against her. But even after Jean reabsorbed that, she has managed to come back, meaning she does somehow still exist as a separate person. Besides that, she had her own set of memories (fake, but still) and a different personality, not to mention her own life experiences from the moment she was created to now.

TLDR: Phoenix!Jean from Phoenix Saga is Jean. Madelyne is not.

This! Also what if current Maddie is just Jean’s mummumdrai that stayed with the current husk when Jean reabsorbed her Maddie parts or existed as a disembodied force until it was able to latch onto enough psychic energy from xman to reconstitute itself as the only thing it knows: Jean.

[Rev9]

This **** is starting to sound like Kingdom Hearts.

Lol, don't get it twisted

[WallStreeter]

Phoenix!Jean is really Jean. She's honestly no different from the current Krakoan Jean, in the sense that she's not Jean's original body or mind but a perfect copy of it. The only difference is that back in the 80's the narrative went with the idea that it didn't count as her, while the current era says the mutants resurrected through the protocols do count as the same person.

The Classic X-Men backup that shows how it actually happened, introduces the idea that Jean's soul was divided, a part of it in her original body and a part of it in the new one. You see Jean's dialogue seamlessly transition from her old dying body to the new one made by the Phoenix. And then in Inferno, they also introduce the idea that after Dark Phoenix's death, the missing part of her soul was supposed to go back to her original body in the coccoon, along with all the memories, to make Jean "whole" again, and she should've come back remembering her time as Phoenix.

To me this was all clearly Claremont's way of trying to make his Jean count, as much as he could with the retcon that editorial was enforcing. Even after Simonson wrote the story where Jean expels the Phoenix shard and loses the Phoenix/Madelyne's personalities, and says that the memories were now distant and not really like her, when Claremont got into X-Factor again he went and wrote a scene where Jean is in the moon and says something like "It shouldn't, but the memory it's mine, and it's real, I remember with every fiber of my being, this is where I died!", establishing that she actually does remember her Phoenix self as if it was her.

I think at least part of the problem is that, back at that time, the writers didn't quite make a differentation between Phoenix as in Phoenix Force, the cosmic entity, and Phoenix, the Jean Grey "clone" that hosted the force and went by Phoenix. They acted like it was just the Phoenix "impersonating" Jean, when in reality, it was still the Phoenix Force inside a host.

Now, Madelyne: The fact that she only woke up with the part of Jean's soul that was missing does help make a case against her. But even after Jean reabsorbed that, she has managed to come back, meaning she does somehow still exist as a separate person. Besides that, she had her own set of memories (fake, but still) and a different personality, not to mention her own life experiences from the moment she was created to now.

TLDR: Phoenix!Jean from Phoenix Saga is Jean. Madelyne is not.

Agree with you completely. Phoenix was Jean all along.

[Devaishwarya]

On the specific subject of responsibility...No, Jean sweetie...that's not how it works.

You may have had a hand in calling the PF to you in your time of desperate need but once the Cosmic Parrot sealed the deal, that's as far as your involvement and responsibility go. Everything that the PF did after that is entirely on the PF (IIRC, It was stated that your humanity is what ultimately kept its destructive nature in check, unfortunately Mastermind and Emma had to go and **** things up...and that's on them...they too need to share the blame but you never saw Emma losing any sleep over it, do you?)

Now, If you had known about its genocidal proclivities before agreeing to bond with it at the start, then that's a different story. But since you were unaware of its true nature and potential at the time, you are absolved, child.

Say ten Hail Marys and just never talk to the stupid bird again.

[Havok83]

Jean holding herself accountable in Xmen Red