Is Jean Grey responsible for the actions taken by the two clones made of her?

[Grinning Soul]

I thought Jean lost most of the Maddie stuff in the space arc during X-Factor. The one where Ship gets called by the Celestials to a planet where everyone has powers and are part of three warring factions. When the Celestial leave at the end they take Maddie's and Phoenix's personalities with them, but I can't say anything about the memories.

She says they're gone, but I think it means that by exhausting her (their) power, she was able to integrate the personas into her main self. She said she could still remember their lives.

[Grinning Soul]

Rev9, I actually came to this thread to tell you that your inbox is full and I can't answer you. I hope you read this. :)

Sorry to hog your thread, Mercury.

[Mercury]

Whew! Y'all got my brain working! Even if I don't agree with some of you, you've all presented so many valid and interesting opinions and points of view. I look forward to chiming in and discoursing after I emerge from under this pile of work on my desk.

I do want to say this: The big difference between Jean's cloned body now and the Phoenix and Sinister clones is that this current body houses Jean's whole psyche; the other two housed fragments of her psyche. The difference should be clear. Nonetheless, I look forward to reading what some of you think that difference is.

I'll be bahk!

[Havok83]

I do want to say this: The big difference between Jean's cloned body now and the Phoenix and Sinister clones is that this current body houses Jean's whole psyche; the other two housed fragments of her psyche. The difference should be clear. Nonetheless, I look forward to reading what some of you think that difference is.

I'll be bahk!

Does it? Bc one can argue that unless Jean is backed at the very second she dies, parts of her psyche is lost each time she dies and is brought back on Krakoa

[Tank]

Does it? Bc one can argue that unless Jean is backed at the very second she dies, parts of her psyche is lost each time she dies and is brought back on Krakoa

Exactly. We dont even know what the last minutes of orchis Jean was like so she’s definitely missing those memories. Still fragmented but still fully Jean.

And as revealed in the classic back up issues: Jean’s entire consciousness/mind and the majority of her soul was merged or moved into the new body she created. She was surprised when a small spark of the old Jean’s soul remained. So if anything the majority of Jean’s soul and mind was in the new body.

[RachelGrey]

In the court of law, no. She isn’t. Even if we went by the original concept of Jean being Phoenix as a show of her true potential, it would not hold up based on the grounds of insanity.

By the concept of morality and ethics? No. The Phoenix may have asked Jean to make a deal with it, but she was more or less in a time of crisis where the lives of her friends were in jeopardy. Sinister didn’t even ask Jean when it came to Madelyne.

As for the result of Phoenix giving Madelyne life, that was done by Jean subconsciously. Not consciously.

Aside from Sinister and the Hellfire Club, there really is no one to prosecute in regards to taking responsibility for the damage done. Jean is not responsible for the actions of others and did her best to fight the wrongs done by them and the Phoenix Force is a sentient force of nature. Asking it to take any responsibility is like asking a hurricane to take responsibility for the lives of others.

Madelyne doesn't even have Jean's memories. She has her own identity. Sure Sinister manufactured all of Madelyne's memories, but that doesn't make them any less real to her. She had a past, parents, a job in Alaska, and she was actually good pilot. Also, Madelyne was better with electronics than Jean is, and she was pretty close to being an electrician. Madelyne is a case of mental health issues caused by a very abusive parent (Sinister) and abandonment by her husband (Scott), kidnapping of her child (Nathan), and multiple assassination attempts by the original Marauders. Madelyne's mental health issues made her an easy target for Sym and N'astirh to both tempt her and fuel her revenge with dark magic. Note how N'astirh deliberately revealed the truth about Madelyne's birth via Sinister, so he could bring Madelyne more under his control. N'astirh wanted Madelyne to hate Sinister as much as she hated Scott and Jean. Hate was the fuel to empower dark magic in Madelyne.

So in the end, Madelyne was her own person and Jean isn't responsible for any crimes Madelyne committed. Jean's only guilt in this situation is not investigating Scott's past wife more diligently. If Jean had reached Madelyne before N'astirh and Sym, it's possible that she may have been able to help Madelyne recover. Now Scott on the other hand is very responsible for Madelyne's mental health downward spiral.

(edit: dumb spellcheck)

[Mercury]

Sorry for the short responses; I'll do deep dives later. However, I want to point out that the fragment of Jean's psyche/essence used to animate both the Phoenix clone and Madelyne Pryor was small enough that Jean could operate without it for the three-plus years before regaining it in Inferno. Furthermore, she showed no signs of memory loss nor significant changes in personality prior to reabsorbing this fragment. Food for thought!

[Tank]

Sorry for the short responses; I'll do deep dives later. However, I want to point out that the fragment of Jean's psyche/essence used to animate both the Phoenix clone and Madelyne Pryor was small enough that Jean could operate without it for the three-plus years before regaining it in Inferno. Furthermore, she showed no signs of memory loss nor significant changes in personality prior to reabsorbing this fragment. Food for thought!

There is no quantifiable way to say how much of a soul is needed to animate or function. What we do know is ALL that makes up a character memories/mind/conciousness was transferred to the new body and MOST of Jean’s soul. That makes her phoenix created body as much Jean as Krakoan Jean being resurrected after her orchis “death” if not even more so. And right after the transfer/merger the new body was more Jean than the older body since most of what makes Jean who she is is located in the new body.

When Dark Phoenix Jean killed herself on the moon, most of Jean’s soul went back to the 2nd chance at the bottom
Of Jamaica bay. The small part of Jean that remained rejected the tainted parts not everything. Who’s to say if Dark Phoenix hadnt died on the moon that the body in Jamaica bay would have even been functional. Maybe, maybe not. But we know majority of what makes Jean— Jean was in the new body she created and we didnt see a fully alive and functioning Jean again until after parts of her had already been transferred back.

[Mercury]

There is no quantifiable way to say how much of a soul is needed to animate or function.

But there is a way to judge whether the missing fragment of Jean's psyche/essence was necessary for her to behave and remember her life as she had prior to her bonding with the Phoenix Force, and that is by assessing her thoughts and behavior in the 38 issues of X-Factor prior to her reabsorbing the fragment.

What we do know is ALL that makes up a character memories/mind/conciousness was transferred to the new body and MOST of Jean’s soul.

Actually, this is incorrect and contradicts what was established in X-Factor #38; that the same exact "fragment" of Jean's "psyche" was used to animate both the Phoenix clone and Madelyne. If you're going to cite the backstory in Classic X-Men #8, don't bother. It was published two years before the aforementioned X-Factor issue. Furthermore, Claremont participated in Inferno and agreed with Simonson's new take, which was established as canon.

That makes her phoenix created body as much Jean as Krakoan Jean being resurrected after her orchis “death” if not even more so. And right after the transfer/merger the new body was more Jean than the older body since most of what makes Jean who she is is located in the new body.

Again, you seem to want to continue to circumvent the fact that the Krakoan clone is imbued with and animated by Jean's entire psyche, unlike the Phoenix and Sinister clones, which were both animated by only a fragment - the same fragment, in fact - of Jean's psyche. How you have come to the conclusion that the Phoenix clone, which, again, was imbued with a only fragment of Jean's psyche, might "even more so" be Jean than the current clone housing her entire psyche is beyond me.

When Dark Phoenix Jean killed herself on the moon, most of Jean’s soul went back to the 2nd chance at the bottom Of Jamaica bay. The small part of Jean that remained rejected the tainted parts not everything.

Again, this is incorrect. The majority of Jean's psyche remained, along with her real body, in the cocoon at the bottom of Jamaica Bay. I am not sure where you gleaned that "most of Jean's soul" was housed in the Phoenix/Dark Phoenix clone, but I would like to read these sources. Nevertheless, this contradicts what was established as canon during Inferno and even during Jean's initial return in Fantastic Four. I have been meaning to post the pages to the latter, which I have included in the response to MechaJeanix I am still in the process of drafting.

Who’s to say if Dark Phoenix hadnt died on the moon that the body in Jamaica bay would have even been functional. Maybe, maybe not. But we know majority of what makes Jean— Jean was in the new body she created and we didnt see a fully alive and functioning Jean again until after parts of her had already been transferred back.

Again, please cite the sources that indicate or explicitly state that the "majority of what makes Jean - Jean was in the new body." Also, please highlight if these sources were written before or after the events in Inferno. I'm on a tight schedule with looming deadlines, so I've already written more than I intended to tonight but wanted to address some of these inconsistencies now.

[Tank]

But there is a way to judge whether the missing fragment of Jean's psyche/essence was necessary for her to behave and remember her life as she had prior to her bonding with the Phoenix Force, and that is by assessing her thoughts and behavior in the 38 issues of X-Factor prior to her reabsorbing the fragment.



Actually, this is incorrect and contradicts what was established in X-Factor #38; that the same exact "fragment" of Jean's "psyche" was used to animate both the Phoenix clone and Madelyne. If you're going to cite the backstory in Classic X-Men #8, don't bother. It was published two years before the aforementioned X-Factor issue. Furthermore, Claremont participated in Inferno and agreed with Simonson's new take, which was established as canon.



Again, you seem to want to continue to circumvent the fact that the Krakoan clone is imbued with and animated by Jean's entire psyche, unlike the Phoenix and Sinister clones, which were both animated by the same fragment of Jean's psyche. How you have come to the conclusion that the Phoenix clone, again, imbued with a only fragment of Jean's psyche, might "even more so" be Jean than the current clone housing her entire psyche is beyond me.



Again, this is incorrect. The majority of Jean's psyche remained, along with her real body, in the cocoon at the bottom of Jamaica Bay. I am not sure where you gleaned that "most of Jean's soul" was housed in the Phoenix/Dark Phoenix clone, but I would like to read these sources. Nevertheless, this contradicts what was established as canon during Inferno and even during Jean's initial return in Fantastic Four. I have been meaning to post the pages to the latter, which I have included in the response to MechaJeanix I am still in the process of drafting.



Again, please cite the sources that indicate or explicitly state that the "majority of what makes Jean - Jean was in the new body." Also, please highlight if these sources were written before or after the events in Inferno. I'm on a tight schedule with looming deadlines, so I've already written more than I intended to tonight but wanted to address some of these inconsistencies now.

I trust the actual moment and descriptions in Classic Xmen because that is what actually happened shown on panel, not further potentially incomplete descriptions by an Xfactor Jean /phoenix that still hadnt reabsorbed all her experiences/memories back and was still in it wasnt me mode the whole time. If I were accused of genoicide, of course id want to deny it with every fiber of my being.

This doesnt change the fact that what actually happened on the shuttle wasnt just a clone, it was a merger/transfer into a new body while only the small spark remained in the old.

Jean/phoenix in her new body says herself that she didnt expect there to be a body or that a small part of Jean’s soul remained because it rejected the gift that was offered. A small part remains because the rest of her soul accepted and was transferred to the new body. Majority of Jean soul no longer in the old body, but in the new means the new body is just every bit Jean if not more so because it has more of her SOUL.

[jwatson]

Actually, Jean was already using her telepathy by that point, which, in fact, she used on the robots to track them.



Jean was angry and confused at the time, especially considering what had been done with the fragment of her psyche, but has since accepted that she asked for the Phoenix Force's help.



The only one with "a complete mental history of Jean" is Jean. As for why it is important: It is important to the integrity of her character.



When you get a chance, please do bring up the Claremont and Morrison scans. The latter, in particular, shows what Jean behaves like when it is really her who is fully bonded with the Phoenix Force.

I'm sitting this one out, way to0 much energy for something i don't get the importance of.

[Mercury]

I trust the actual moment and descriptions in Classic Xmen because that is what actually happened.

Okay, so you have established what version of the story you prefer, which there is nothing wrong with, but which contradicts canon. I love the Classic X-Men backstories and how they added textures and nuance to the "Phoenix Saga" and Dark Phoenix Saga. In fact, I have spent more time as a Jean fan defending their validity and importance in substantiating that "Jean really was Phoenix and Dark Phoenix!" than I care to share. (Admittedly, for the longest time, I hated the retcon of the Dark Phoenix Saga. I felt it robbed Jean of something as a character. Besides, I wanted it to be "really her" who accomplished the amazing feats Phoenix accomplished prior to going "dark.")

However, in reviewing Jean's history over the last several months, I have moved away from my need to impose my views and preferences on what has been established as canon, however much I may disagree with canon at times. Adamantly protesting something that is not going to change, especially aspects of a character's personality and history, will only lead to further disappointment and embitterment regarding how that character is later written. Frankly, I choose not to subject myself or others to that. Instead, I'd much rather trace the threads of Jean's character, however divergent and confusing they may be, and make some sense of the mess. Ultimately, doing so has made me realize what a rich, mercurial, and fascinating character she is.

Mind you, I am not saying you or anyone else is doing this, but I no longer need to cling to insisting that the woman who was first Phoenix and then Dark Phoenix was Jean Grey, especially when it has been established that she was not. Did the original Phoenix/Dark Phoenix contain a fragment of Jean's essence? Absolutely. Did said clone represent Jean in her totality? Absolutely not. She was a derivation of Jean Grey. This is not something I came up with; this is what was established as canon during the retcon. Since accepting this, I have realized that it only adds more depth to Jean's story and her psychological makeup.

Here's an example of how the creators view and Jean herself feels about her relationship to the Phoenix clone from the late-90s (?). (Incidentally, this example also underscores just how powerful Mastermind's powers of illusion are, for those who can appreciate the added context to what he did to the Phoenix clone during the Dark Phoenix Saga.)






I appreciate how much thought and consideration you have given this discussion. Furthermore, I appreciate how much thought and consideration you have given Jean and her history. Reading some of your rebuttals reminds me of some of the responses I would produce when challenged about Jean's identity as Phoenix/Dark Phoenix. However, as I noted, I no longer feel the same way. In fact, I consider Jean's time as Phoenix, spanning from the late-1990s to the early-2000s Jean's true legacy as Phoenix. Morrison did a great job of distinguishing between a clone of Jean as Phoenix and the real Jean as Phoenix.



Of course, I will write more later, but I will have to keep myself from responding again tonight because I just got way too much **** to do! (I feel like crying!) I would like to get into how Jean's adventures while time-displaced, especially The Trial of Jean Grey and the Jean Grey solo, factor into this conversation. Also, forgive any grammatical errors. Night!

[Wiccan]

But there is a way to judge whether the missing fragment of Jean's psyche/essence was necessary for her to behave and remember her life as she had prior to her bonding with the Phoenix Force, and that is by assessing her thoughts and behavior in the 38 issues of X-Factor prior to her reabsorbing the fragment.



Actually, this is incorrect and contradicts what was established in X-Factor #38; that the same exact "fragment" of Jean's "psyche" was used to animate both the Phoenix clone and Madelyne. If you're going to cite the backstory in Classic X-Men #8, don't bother. It was published two years before the aforementioned X-Factor issue. Furthermore, Claremont participated in Inferno and agreed with Simonson's new take, which was established as canon.



Again, you seem to want to continue to circumvent the fact that the Krakoan clone is imbued with and animated by Jean's entire psyche, unlike the Phoenix and Sinister clones, which were both animated by only a fragment - the same fragment, in fact - of Jean's psyche. How you have come to the conclusion that the Phoenix clone, which, again, was imbued with a only fragment of Jean's psyche, might "even more so" be Jean than the current clone housing her entire psyche is beyond me.



Again, this is incorrect. The majority of Jean's psyche remained, along with her real body, in the cocoon at the bottom of Jamaica Bay. I am not sure where you gleaned that "most of Jean's soul" was housed in the Phoenix/Dark Phoenix clone, but I would like to read these sources. Nevertheless, this contradicts what was established as canon during Inferno and even during Jean's initial return in Fantastic Four. I have been meaning to post the pages to the latter, which I have included in the response to MechaJeanix I am still in the process of drafting.



Again, please cite the sources that indicate or explicitly state that the "majority of what makes Jean - Jean was in the new body." Also, please highlight if these sources were written before or after the events in Inferno. I'm on a tight schedule with looming deadlines, so I've already written more than I intended to tonight but wanted to address some of these inconsistencies now.

1) I think it's silly to argue about what quantity of the damn soul was in either body, because it's obvious that editorial/Simonson/others involved and Claremont had two very different ideas about it. Editorial didn't want Phoenix to count as Jean at all, and pushed the narrative that it was merely a doppelganger. Claremont then made that backup story trying to reconcile the retcon with his original story, by writing the scene of what actually happen as the "clone" being really just Jean in a new body, with only the part of her soul that didn't want to be Phoenix staying in her dying body. I guess editorial 1) Thought it didn't exactly contradict the retcon anyway and 2) Wasn't paying much attention to backup stories in reprinted issues. So X-Factor continues to be written with the "It wasn't really Jean" narrative as usual.

2) The idea of "soul" in the new Krakoan Resurrection Protocols is... Complicated. Imo it's quite obvious that the whole concept isn't really considering the more spiritual/fantastic idea of "soul", as in stories where characters who died literally experience the Afterlife. It's a backup of their minds. Kept by Cerebro. It's technology. And those are put into newly created bodies which don't inheretely have it. So really, when they say soul, they're just considering the backup itself, which has the subject's mind/psyche recorded, as the "soul", because it's the essence of who they are as a person.

That's where Phoenix!Jean is the same as Krakoa Jean: The Phoenix copied Jean's mind/psyche/memories and "uploaded" it into a new body in the same way that The Five put the mutant's backed up mind/psyche/memories into the new bodies their create. It's both ctrl + c/ctrl -v.

[Tank]

Okay, so you have established what version of the story you prefer, which there is nothing wrong with, but which contradicts canon. I love the Classic X-Men backstories and how they added textures and nuance to the "Phoenix Saga" and Dark Phoenix Saga. In fact, I have spent more time as a Jean fan defending their validity and importance in substantiating that "Jean really was Phoenix and Dark Phoenix!" than I care to share. (Admittedly, for the longest time, I hated the retcon of the Dark Phoenix Saga. I felt it robbed Jean of something as a character. Besides, I wanted it to be "really her" who accomplished the amazing feats Phoenix accomplished prior to going "dark.")

However, in reviewing Jean's history over the last several months, I have moved away from my need to impose my views and preferences on what has been established as canon, however much I may disagree with canon at times. Adamantly protesting something that is not going to change, especially aspects of a character's personality and history, will only lead to further disappointment and embitterment regarding how that character is later written. Frankly, I choose not to subject myself or others to that. Instead, I'd much rather trace the threads of Jean's character, however divergent and confusing they may be, and make some sense of the mess. Ultimately, doing so has made me realize what a rich, mercurial, and fascinating character she is.

Mind you, I am not saying you or anyone else is doing this, but I no longer need to cling to insisting that the woman who was first Phoenix and then Dark Phoenix was Jean Grey, especially when it has been established that she was not. Did the original Phoenix/Dark Phoenix contain a fragment of Jean's essence? Absolutely. Did said clone represent Jean in her totality? Absolutely not. She was a derivation of Jean Grey. This is not something I came up with; this is what was established as canon during the retcon. Since accepting this, I have realized that it only adds more depth to Jean's story and her psychological makeup.

Here's an example of how the creators view and Jean herself feels about her relationship to the Phoenix clone from the late-90s (?). (Incidentally, this example also underscores just how powerful Mastermind's powers of illusion are, for those who can appreciate the added context to what he did to the Phoenix clone during the Dark Phoenix Saga.)






I appreciate how much thought and consideration you have given this discussion. Furthermore, I appreciate how much thought and consideration you have given Jean and her history. Reading some of your rebuttals reminds me of some of the responses I would produce when challenged about Jean's identity as Phoenix/Dark Phoenix. However, as I noted, I no longer feel the same way. In fact, I consider Jean's time as Phoenix, spanning from the late-1990s to the early-2000s Jean's true legacy as Phoenix. Morrison did a great job of distinguishing between a clone of Jean as Phoenix and the real Jean as Phoenix.



Of course, I will write more later, but I will have to keep myself from responding again tonight because I just got way too much **** to do! (I feel like crying!) I would like to get into how Jean's adventures while time-displaced, especially The Trial of Jean Grey and the Jean Grey solo, factor into this conversation. Also, forgive any grammatical errors. Night!

The history is so convoluted that there are always instances of pointing to one view or the other. Even the characters themselves are inconsistent. For as Jean was saying it wasnt me in the early to mid 90s in the 2000s she and other characters refer to her as the original phoenix dark phoenix.

If jean in the phoenix created body isnt Jean, than neither is post orchis Jean.

[Tank]

1) I think it's silly to argue about what quantity of the damn soul was in either body, because it's obvious that editorial/Simonson/others involved and Claremont had two very different ideas about it. Editorial didn't want Phoenix to count as Jean at all, and pushed the narrative that it was merely a doppelganger. Claremont then made that backup story trying to reconcile the retcon with his original story, by writing the scene of what actually happen as the "clone" being really just Jean in a new body, with only the part of her soul that didn't want to be Phoenix staying in her dying body. I guess editorial 1) Thought it didn't exactly contradict the retcon anyway and 2) Wasn't paying much attention to backup stories in reprinted issues. So X-Factor continues to be written with the "It wasn't really Jean" narrative as usual.

2) The idea of "soul" in the new Krakoan Resurrection Protocols is... Complicated. Imo it's quite obvious that the whole concept isn't really considering the more spiritual/fantastic idea of "soul", as in stories where characters who died literally experience the Afterlife. It's a backup of their minds. Kept by Cerebro. It's technology. And those are put into newly created bodies which don't inheretely have it. So really, when they say soul, they're just considering the backup itself, which has the subject's mind/psyche recorded, as the "soul", because it's the essence of who they are as a person.

That's where Phoenix!Jean is the same as Krakoa Jean: The Phoenix copied Jean's mind/psyche/memories and "uploaded" it into a new body in the same way that The Five put the mutant's backed up mind/psyche/memories into the new bodies their create. It's both ctrl + c/ctrl -v.

Thanks for putting it so succinctly.