Is Jean Grey responsible for the actions taken by the two clones made of her?

[Steroid]

Phoenix!Jean is really Jean. She's honestly no different from the current Krakoan Jean, in the sense that she's not Jean's original body or mind but a perfect copy of it. The only difference is that back in the 80's the narrative went with the idea that it didn't count as her, while the current era says the mutants resurrected through the protocols do count as the same person.

The Classic X-Men backup that shows how it actually happened, introduces the idea that Jean's soul was divided, a part of it in her original body and a part of it in the new one. You see Jean's dialogue seamlessly transition from her old dying body to the new one made by the Phoenix. And then in Inferno, they also introduce the idea that after Dark Phoenix's death, the missing part of her soul was supposed to go back to her original body in the coccoon, along with all the memories, to make Jean "whole" again, and she should've come back remembering her time as Phoenix.

To me this was all clearly Claremont's way of trying to make his Jean count, as much as he could with the retcon that editorial was enforcing. Even after Simonson wrote the story where Jean expels the Phoenix shard and loses the Phoenix/Madelyne's personalities, and says that the memories were now distant and not really like her, when Claremont got into X-Factor again he went and wrote a scene where Jean is in the moon and says something like "It shouldn't, but the memory it's mine, and it's real, I remember with every fiber of my being, this is where I died!", establishing that she actually does remember her Phoenix self as if it was her.

I think at least part of the problem is that, back at that time, the writers didn't quite make a differentation between Phoenix as in Phoenix Force, the cosmic entity, and Phoenix, the Jean Grey "clone" that hosted the force and went by Phoenix. They acted like it was just the Phoenix "impersonating" Jean, when in reality, it was still the Phoenix Force inside a host.

Now, Madelyne: The fact that she only woke up with the part of Jean's soul that was missing does help make a case against her. But even after Jean reabsorbed that, she has managed to come back, meaning she does somehow still exist as a separate person. Besides that, she had her own set of memories (fake, but still) and a different personality, not to mention her own life experiences from the moment she was created to now.

TLDR: Phoenix!Jean from Phoenix Saga is Jean. Madelyne is not.

Don't much care either way but honestly for me Wiccan's write up sums up my take on the Jean/Phoenix debate.

[Starchilde]

1) I think it's silly to argue about what quantity of the damn soul was in either body, because it's obvious that editorial/Simonson/others involved and Claremont had two very different ideas about it. Editorial didn't want Phoenix to count as Jean at all, and pushed the narrative that it was merely a doppelganger. Claremont then made that backup story trying to reconcile the retcon with his original story, by writing the scene of what actually happen as the "clone" being really just Jean in a new body, with only the part of her soul that didn't want to be Phoenix staying in her dying body. I guess editorial 1) Thought it didn't exactly contradict the retcon anyway and 2) Wasn't paying much attention to backup stories in reprinted issues. So X-Factor continues to be written with the "It wasn't really Jean" narrative as usual.

2) The idea of "soul" in the new Krakoan Resurrection Protocols is... Complicated. Imo it's quite obvious that the whole concept isn't really considering the more spiritual/fantastic idea of "soul", as in stories where characters who died literally experience the Afterlife. It's a backup of their minds. Kept by Cerebro. It's technology. And those are put into newly created bodies which don't inheretely have it. So really, when they say soul, they're just considering the backup itself, which has the subject's mind/psyche recorded, as the "soul", because it's the essence of who they are as a person.

That's where Phoenix!Jean is the same as Krakoa Jean: The Phoenix copied Jean's mind/psyche/memories and "uploaded" it into a new body in the same way that The Five put the mutant's backed up mind/psyche/memories into the new bodies their create. It's both ctrl + c/ctrl -v.

I agree with these points

[PyroFN]

I disagree with this point; the rest I agree with. As evidenced on the page in my original post, Jean only rejected the fragment, she didn't subconsciously direct it to animate Madelyne.

She was literally asleep in a cocoon when it came to her. There is literally no way she could make any conscious decision in that state.

[Havok83]

Madelyne doesn't even have Jean's memories. She has her own identity. Sure Sinister manufactured all of Madelyne's memories, but that doesn't make them any less real to her. She had a past, parents, a job in Alaska, and she was actually good pilot. Also, Madelyne was better with electronics than Jean is, and she was pretty close to being an electrician. Madelyne is a case of mental health issues caused by a very abusive parent (Sinister) and abandonment by her husband (Scott), kidnapping of her child (Nathan), and multiple assassination attempts by the original Marauders. Madelyne's mental health issues made her an easy target for Sym and N'astirh to both tempt her and fuel her revenge with dark magic. Note how N'astirh deliberately revealed the truth about Madelyne's birth via Sinister, so he could bring Madelyne more under his control. N'astirh wanted Madelyne to hate Sinister as much as she hated Scott and Jean. Hate was the fuel to empower dark magic in Madelyne.

So in the end, Madelyne was her own person and Jean isn't responsible for any crimes Madelyne committed. Jean's only guilt in this situation is not investigating Scott's past wife more diligently. If Jean had reached Madelyne before N'astirh and Sym, it's possible that she may have been able to help Madelyne recover. Now Scott on the other hand is very responsible for Madelyne's mental health downward spiral.

(edit: dumb spellcheck)

Maddie did have some of Jeans memories. She remembered parts of Jean’s childhood, specifically the death of
Annie, whom Maddie thought she had experienced

[ComeOnBunny]

No, she isn't anymore responsible for her clones actions than Wolverine is for his

[Devaishwarya]

Going by the many instances where the Jean-P-DP-Cocoon Jean "contradict" each other, it seems that every time a writer were to try to explain it and move forward, someone (Claremont or editorial), with their own interpretation would come in and re-write it with another layer of interpretation just adding more crap to the already colossal shit-pile.

At this point, I could believe Jean was never actually Phoenix and I would be right.
Another person could say Jean was Phoenix and they too would be right.

...such are the incongruities of canon as written by a million different writers.

With regards to Phoenix creating a Jean-bod to house a soul, and the R5 creating a new Jean-bod(s) to house a soul(s)...while they may be tangentially similar theoretically, the fact that they're created by two very different writers, of two very different eras, with clearly very different story-intentions and sensibilities would suggest that we really cannot equate the two processes.

[LordAllMIghty]

No, she is not.

What's funny, I never really thought of Phoenix and Maddy as evil Jean clones.

[Mercury]

I still don’t have time to respond, but I wanted to acknowledge that you have all presented valid and thought-provoking points I want to mull over.

1) I think it's silly to argue about what quantity of the damn soul was in either body…

Your post, in particular, intrigued and made me think. However, picturing your avatar saying/writing the above threw me into a fit of laughter. Too adorable! 😂

[Mutant 77]

Phoenix became Dark Phoenix because she was... "human". The Phoenix Force created an exact duplicate of Jean Grey, and placed itself inside. Her mind, consciousness, memories and her entire physiology was an exact replica of Jean Grey/Marvel Girl, albeit if powered by the Phoenix Force.

Phoenix "Jean" had been mentally and physically abused by Jason Wyngarde/Mastermind, and that made her turn into Dark Phoenix. Guilt, remorse, shame, rage and inner turmoil made her lose control over her cosmic nature. Her "humanity" played a large role into her "corruption". It was caused by a trauma.

[Mercury]

I still intend to respond to a lot of your replies and was eventually going to post these scans, but 616MarvelYear is LeapYear beat me to it in the other thread, so I figured I'd post them here as more food for thought.

[Havok83]

The Avengers and FF needed to shut up. They were trying to explain something that they really knew nothing about and presented it to Jean as fact

[Tank]

I still intend to respond to a lot of your replies and was eventually going to post these scans, but 616MarvelYear is LeapYear beat me to it in the other thread, so I figured I'd post them here as more food for thought.

Yes let’s take an incomplete Jean and the words of people who werent there on the shuttle as 100% fact. ::eye roll::

What was shown in classic xmen is between the force and Jean without a 3rd party interpretation and we see it’s a transfer/merger. Even in the recent handbooks and issues like Avx and Morrison’s run refer to Jean as the Dark Phoenix. Im also pretty sure the classic backs ups came AFTER this issue.

[Mercury]

Yes let’s take an incomplete Jean and the words of people who werent there on the shuttle as 100% fact. ::eye roll::

Tank, I find you too adorable! 😂🤣😂🤣😂 I actually took a break I can't afford to take to reply to you. I really appreciate how you - actually, all of you - defend the integrity of Claremont's vision for Jean and her connection to the Phoenix Force. It warms my heart.

Also, you are correct, the Classic X-Men backstories came after the Fantastic Four issue covering Jean's return, but Inferno came after both...

Also, MeachaJeanix and Wiccan brought up some great points I'm still working on responding to, but I want to stress again, both the Phoenix clone and Madelyne Pryor were Jean clones imbued with the same fragment of her essence. Mind you, an argument can be made that Madelyne became someone entirely different after the events of Inferno, but up until then, was she not as much Jean as the Phoenix clone?

[Mercury]

This is a summary of Jean's relationship with the Phoenix Force that I threw together a few months ago:

[Mercury]

I remembered this page from X-Men: Red and wanted to post it here for further discussion. Here, Black Panther makes clear, "That wasn't you, Jean," which she does not deny. She simply acknowledges, "I was a part of it," which, of course, is true. After all, "it" did contain a fragment of her psyche.