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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by BatmanJones View Post
    Which is true of all Black Label books which is why I find it baffling that so many are so upset over this. Black Label books are essentially What If? books. It doesn't mean a BL story can't graduate to continuity as Killing Joke and others have, but it does mean it's not in canon unless there's a really good, agreed-upon reason to make it so.
    "Adam Strange is a war criminal" is a What If story. "Adam Strange is colonialist" is a critique of the property that brands it as outdated, if not problematic. It seems to me DC has reason enough, especially when the trend is toward inclusive legacy characters.

    Also, I'm skeptical they'd be like "nah. This Eisner-nominated series isn't relevant to anything". In continuity or not, they'll push it as essential Adam Strange.

    What I would do personally is have Adam raising Aleea on Earth. Keep the table-setting of Strange Adventures, but subvert the character assassination. Subvert the subversion? Love the idea too of an Adam-Alanna role reversal.
    Last edited by I.Strange; 10-21-2021 at 01:28 AM.

  2. #92
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BatmanJones View Post
    Yeah, maybe I wasn't paraphrasing you properly. I know you wrote a bit at least about doing things to children's characters and that struck me a little odd. I remember thinking 'they're not children's characters to me. I mean, they used to be but not anymore.'

    Oh dang, and I misspelled Bored too. I hadn't realized that. Maybe I'm wrong about everything.

    Sincerely, I love your posts and I loved the one I probably mangled too.
    No worries. You did mangle what I was saying a little though. My point is that these characters were originally designed for children and even though the readership has aged far beyond what was originally intended, there's only so far you can push these characters into adult sensibilities before they break. Of course, everyone's line of what's too far will be different. For some, I'm sure Roy Harper being revealed as a drug addict was going too far. For others, it was the tone deaf use of rape in Identity Crisis. For me, it's turning characters who are meant to represent heroism into killers and villains.

    This isn't to say the superhero genre must be shackled to stories that can only be enjoyed by children, mind you. I think there's plenty to done with superheroes with more adult themes, but I'd rather they be done with characters designed for that. I haven't seen it, but The Boys seems to be doing a good job of that, and I thought the Invincible comic and cartoon also did a great job of exploring some really dark material.

    Of course DC wants to exploit the IP that it owns, but that's all it feels like King, Shaner, & Gerads have done. They didn't add anything of value here that couldn't have been better accomplished with original characters. This felt more like a bunch of talented guys cashing a paycheck, unfortunately. The art by Shaner & Gerads was absolutely gorgeous and I'll no doubt re-read it for that, but the story as a whole feels so rote and by the numbers despite some really stellar characterization from King.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by I.Strange View Post
    "Adam Strange is a war criminal" is a What If story. "Adam Strange is colonialist" is a critique of the property that brands it as outdated, if not problematic. It seems to me DC has reason enough, especially when the trend is toward inclusive legacy characters.

    Also, I'm skeptical they'd be like "nah. This Eisner-nominated series isn't relevant to anything". In continuity or not, they'll push it as essential Adam Strange.

    What I would do personally is have Adam raising Aleea on Earth. Keep the table-setting of Strange Adventures, but subvert the character assassination. Subvert the subversion? Love the idea too of an Adam-Alanna role reversal.
    Is he though?

  4. #94
    Incredible Member ducklord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Is he though?
    The "Adam Strange as colonialist" critique is kind of weird.

    In the original stories, Adam Strange was (if I'm remembering things correctly) kind of a less-problematic John Carter from Mars.

    - Adam finds himself on an alien planet, Rann.
    - In a reversal of the hackneyed "white savior" tropes, Rann is quite advanced. Adam, although cunning and clever, is the "primitive" in this scenario (something that Moore played with in his Swamp Thing run).
    - Rann is beset with freaky monsters and occasional alien invaders. Adam, although a savage Earthman, regularly saves the alien planet's bacon via cleverness and ray gun.
    - This is where a question of colonialization comes into play. I don't distinctly remember Adam regularly going to invade other planets on behalf of Rann, or take over continents/countries on Rann inhabited by "primitive" natives. Did that ever happen in the original stories? Most of the time he seemed to be defending Rann from alien invaders and monsters. So. Many. Monsters.

    So where does this colonialism talk come from? If it's King, it's possible he may have been projecting an issue onto a character where one doesn't exist.

  5. #95
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    To talk just about this series and not the wider character ramifications. My feelings about halfway through have not changed with the last issue. Interesting story with first rate art. BUT it was way too long with way too much filler. Scenes of the war on Rann that were too interchangable and took too long for the big reveal. The 12 issues and the long delays took away from any impact the truth about Adam might have had.
    This should have been 4 or 6 issues at most. The length made it a mediocre series.

    Some might say decompression and 12 issue minis are just the way of things. Maybe true, doesn't mean that it isn't detrimental to the story. Just like TV series that have too many episodes so that the story becomes boring, too many issues can seriously harm a miniseries.
    Last edited by Kirby101; 10-21-2021 at 11:24 AM.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by ducklord View Post
    The "Adam Strange as colonialist" critique is kind of weird.

    In the original stories, Adam Strange was (if I'm remembering things correctly) kind of a less-problematic John Carter from Mars.

    - Adam finds himself on an alien planet, Rann.
    - In a reversal of the hackneyed "white savior" tropes, Rann is quite advanced. Adam, although cunning and clever, is the "primitive" in this scenario (something that Moore played with in his Swamp Thing run).
    - Rann is beset with freaky monsters and occasional alien invaders. Adam, although a savage Earthman, regularly saves the alien planet's bacon via cleverness and ray gun.
    - This is where a question of colonialization comes into play. I don't distinctly remember Adam regularly going to invade other planets on behalf of Rann, or take over continents/countries on Rann inhabited by "primitive" natives. Did that ever happen in the original stories? Most of the time he seemed to be defending Rann from alien invaders and monsters. So. Many. Monsters.

    So where does this colonialism talk come from? If it's King, it's possible he may have been projecting an issue onto a character where one doesn't exist.
    I wish I could thumbs-up a forum post. Yeah, it's from King.

    "Adam Strange is one of a long line of characters--like Tarzan and Flash Gordon, stolid men with dimpled chins who thrive in "foreign lands"--who stand in as a metaphor for a 19th-century European dream of colonialism. Of course, colonialism was nothing like this dream, and it's that contrast that interests me: the bloody gap between the myth and the reality."

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Is he though?
    I mean, when the writer inserts gladiatorial contests with savage "Rurals"...

  8. #98
    Incredible Member ducklord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I.Strange View Post
    I wish I could thumbs-up a forum post. Yeah, it's from King.

    "Adam Strange is one of a long line of characters--like Tarzan and Flash Gordon, stolid men with dimpled chins who thrive in "foreign lands"--who stand in as a metaphor for a 19th-century European dream of colonialism. Of course, colonialism was nothing like this dream, and it's that contrast that interests me: the bloody gap between the myth and the reality."
    It seems like King transplanted some legit critiques of Tarzan, Flash Gordon el al onto a character that doesn't quite fit. By the time he was created, the 19th century European dream of colonialism was pretty much dead.

    Frankly, I'm not sure that there really *was* much subtext to be found in the classic Adam Strange stories, other than the standard late-50's US belief that "just about any problem can be solved... with science!" Although I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't a few Soviet allegories in Strange's stories... those were all over the place in the Silver Age.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by ducklord View Post
    Frankly, I'm not sure that there really *was* much subtext to be found in the classic Adam Strange stories, other than the standard late-50's US belief that "just about any problem can be solved... with science!" Although I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't a few Soviet allegories in Strange's stories... those were all over the place in the Silver Age.
    A subtext of nuclear anxiety, maybe? I haven't read through that lens, but.. planet threatening dangers, reassurance of agency.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...am_Strange.jpg

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by ducklord View Post
    It seems like King transplanted some legit critiques of Tarzan, Flash Gordon el al onto a character that doesn't quite fit. By the time he was created, the 19th century European dream of colonialism was pretty much dead.

    Frankly, I'm not sure that there really *was* much subtext to be found in the classic Adam Strange stories, other than the standard late-50's US belief that "just about any problem can be solved... with science!" Although I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't a few Soviet allegories in Strange's stories... those were all over the place in the Silver Age.
    Also an element of escapism where a normal, hum-drum, scientist on Earth gets transported to a fantasy alien land where he's a hero, has a hot wife, and does amazing things...and then gets transported back to Earth where he's basically nothing again.

  11. #101
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    "Colonialist" seems like entirely the wrong term for someone from earth who chooses Rann, rather than earth, as the planet to which he is loyal.

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Also an element of escapism where a normal, hum-drum, scientist on Earth gets transported to a fantasy alien land where he's a hero, has a hot wife, and does amazing things...and then gets transported back to Earth where he's basically nothing again.
    I love the zeta beam formula, especially in repetition. And that melancholy of wish fulfillment laced with impermanence.

    For me, the character represents finding your niche. A thousand superheroes on Earth, and then Adam literally off on his own planet. Finding a partner, a purpose, being good at what you do. It's strangely relatable.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by I.Strange View Post
    I love the zeta beam formula, especially in repetition. And that melancholy of wish fulfillment laced with impermanence.

    For me, the character represents finding your niche. A thousand superheroes on Earth, and then Adam literally off on his own planet. Finding a partner, a purpose, being good at what you do. It's strangely relatable.
    There you go .

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by ducklord View Post
    It seems like King transplanted some legit critiques of Tarzan, Flash Gordon el al onto a character that doesn't quite fit. By the time he was created, the 19th century European dream of colonialism was pretty much dead.
    I don't want to get political, but given how much King was effected by the Iraq War. I think it's probably clear to people like him that that style of colonialism and many of the tropes it's associated with never died, it just got updated to a brand new model that includes book tours.
    Last edited by Bruce Wayne; 11-25-2021 at 07:28 PM.

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