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  1. #301
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rac7d* View Post
    Her most recent appearce in film still perpetuates that she is the anchor, the moral fiber, the tether of hope in Clarks eyes. It being common knowledge the best way to manipulate him is by endangering her in any way. You can thank mister snyder for that. also seen recently in Harley Quinn show, Batman Hush, and of course Injustice. Superman and Lois subverts this only becasue Clark sons become easier hostages.

    Marvel seems to be distancing away for this trope, thier new Spiderman has not been put in this situation with MJ. in fact none of the marvel leading men have had their female opposite taken hostage i believe.
    i wasn't talking about those things..Well,those things subvert superman as it is..
    "I swear to devote my life to the destruction of piracy, greed, cruelty and injustice! And my sons, and their sons, shall follow me!"

  2. #302
    Ultimate Member Vordan's Avatar
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    21 pages, that announcement has certainly done its job
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  3. #303
    Fantastic Member oneveryfineday's Avatar
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    I was curious about how Jon was filtered to the public consciousness so I checked out some mainstream network coverage and grabbed some quotes. I thought it would be interesting to see how the cultural conversation plays out through Superman, especially since when society undergoes social, philosophical, and religious shifts we tend to work it out in fiction, and Jon got to have his moment. Apologies for the length.

    - ďSuperman is one of the most iconic characters in comic books. And itís sort of bridging a generational gap from a character that came out in the 1930s, 1940s, to his son, you know, part of the world today.Ē (x)

    - ďHis sexuality isnít the only way the character has been updated. In recent editions heís also been advocating for refugees and fighting the climate crisis. Is it a bird, is it a plane, or is it social change.Ē (x)

    - ďA bisexual Superman. Not Clark Kent, but rather Jon Kent, the son of the perfectly wholesome alien-human hybrid couple, Clark Kent and Lois Lane. He tackles climate change and school shootings, and will soon begin a romantic relationship with a male friend.Ē (x)

    - ďItís not just any superhero, this is Superman. This is the big one. And yes, even though itís not Clark Kent, the original Superman, itís his son, itís still a really big deal, and a really big step in representation for the LGBTQ community. [Ö] There really is a progression over the last decades. You have LGBTQ villains, then victims, sort of side characters, and now superheroes, and actually what DC and their rival Marvel have been doing is really queering their cast of characters, theyíve been bringing back superheroes with new queer backstoriesÖbut Superman is really the big one. This is next level.Ē (x)

    - ďInstead the writers have introduced a new character, their son Jon Kent. Heís a millennial. Heís growing up in the 21st century and his character reflects that. Jon Kent campaigns for climate action, he fights military brutality, he gets arrested at a protest for refugee resettlement. Jon Kent is basically Ďwoke Supermaní. [Ö] The [fansí] problem is not with the romance. They have a problem with the partners. Theyíre fine with heroes in heterosexual relationships but not same-sex ones. So how do you work around this problem? Fans feel strongly about their superheroes so a sudden change in character may come as a shock. The alternative is what Superman has doneóintroduce a new character, equally symbolic, equally powerful. Getting a consensus here is nearly impossible but the fact is you cannot stop the march of time. Superman was a refugee from another planet. Today his son is fighting for refugees on Earth. Itís a natural progression. [Ö] The idea is not to alter old characters or change their legacies. Create new characters, equally powerful but more diverse. So a bisexual Superman is not the end of the world. It is a sign of a changing world.Ē (x)

    My least favorite news reaction comes courtesy of Nigel Farage, who said that the Superman he admired was a ďbig, masculine, alpha male figure who goes out and wants to take on the enemy and save the worldĒ ďone of the most heterosexual role modelsĒ married to Lois Lane but is now part of an ďendangered speciesĒ, with the intention to imply that the new guy in comparison is an emasculated, unheroic, limp-wristed queer. Seriously, f*ck that, and f*ck the idea that a man kissing another man is anything less than masculine and using Clark to perpetuate that idea.

    A different segment from another show does have a more positive take on how a queer Superman challenges traditional masculinity: ďBecause if you think about real life, I mean there will be very, very tough guys who fight for the SAS who are bisexual and gay. And I think the issue here is the fact that traditionally weíve associated the heroic actions of people like Superman and Batmanóweíve somehow conflated them with straightforward heterosexual masculinity. And it doesnít have to be that way. As I say in the real world, you can have real male heroes who are gay or bisexual. And to just actually just make one of them bisexual is actually a nod to that reality.Ē (x) With that in mind, I would love to see certain peopleís faces when they find out that Jon is stronger than his dad. And I think itís telling that Jonís queerness, more than any other controversial thing heís done in his existence (even dropping ďThe American WayĒ from the motto), is somehow the biggest transgression on the Superman name and is the spark that lit the international firestorm of debate. In a way this challenges peopleís perception of Clark too, because heís the messianic figure of Western society and whether or not he accepts Jon is a statement on whatís acceptable in our culture. And of course both Clark and Lois are going to be the coolest, most loving parents in the world, and homophobes are going to have to deal with the shattering realization that the Super family are no longer the ideal, completely straight nuclear family and they might just hang a rainbow flag in front of their house. Itís nearly impossible to disentangle what Jon coming out means to Clark and Lois as characters too.

    Nigel Farage also continued to talk about Jon in heavy scare quotes, but despite that he pretty much gets it right on what Jon Kent is about. If Jon challenges traditional heterosexual masculinity then what else does he challenge: ďJon Kent is coming out in DC Comics as being bisexual. Thatís just the beginning. But what heís also gonna be doing is heís gonna be fighting some different campaigns. Rather than taking on enemies that could destroy the world heís gonna do some rather different things. Heíll be fighting against climate change. Thatís a very, very important part of what heíll be doing. In particular, something that is incredibly political, he will be campaigning against the deportation of those who do not qualify as refugees that have entered America illegally. Now that is all astonishing.Ē

    I do get satisfaction that not only are people outraged over a new bisexual Superman, theyíre outraged over his activism too (which heís done forÖall of three issues). I think thereís something about Jonís transgressive queerness that sort of intertwines with his politics, in a sort of ďThe new Superman is queer, and thatís not all because donít you know heís a social justice warrior too?Ē Itís a Golden Age Superman with a modern queer twist. Though what if New 52 Clark was a radical Superman who dated guys? Itís an interesting thought exercise.

    In total, hell yeah for Jon Kent getting to be known to all sides of the general public as the bisexual, young, super activist of the 21st century. Ya either love him or hate him. I have to give Taylor credit because I think he succeeded in what he set out to do in a remarkably short amount of time. Also I think itís funny that the cultural conversation took a clear hurdle over the fact that Jon replaced Clark as Earthís Superman.

    I hope that after all this has settled down Jon can take a breather so we can get to know more of him as a character. Does he still go to college? What does he do in his spare time? What are his likes and dislikes? At least heís set to appear in more books so hopefully thereís more room to explore that stuff.

  4. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rac7d* View Post
    Her most recent appearce in film still perpetuates that she is the anchor, the moral fiber, the tether of hope in Clarks eyes. It being common knowledge the best way to manipulate him is by endangering her in any way. You can thank mister snyder for that. also seen recently in Harley Quinn show, Batman Hush, and of course Injustice. Superman and Lois subverts this only becasue Clark sons become easier hostages.

    Marvel seems to be distancing away for this trope, thier new Spiderman has not been put in this situation with MJ. in fact none of the marvel leading men have had their female opposite taken hostage i believe.
    The MCU isn’t distancing from the trope—it’s distanced from romance and sexuality period. There have been countless articles written about this. With rare exceptions, the MCU doesn’t engage enough in genuine relationships outside of the core heroics for there to ::be:: any stakes in that regard. That’s not actually a good thing and has been heavily criticized in major publications and by a lot of critics.

    I like the MCU a lot. But they have yet to actually produce a love story that’s actually on the level of Superman and Lois Lane in terms of just sheer commitment to love and romance. They were all inspired by Reeve and Kidder but didn’t actually get there. They got close with Pepper and Tony but they didn’t really get there because of the MCU need to make everything a damn joke. They could have gotten there with T’Challa and Nakia if it were not for Chadwick’s tragic passing may he Rest In Peace.

    Trying to compare romance and sex with the MCU doesn’t work. Even Wandavision—their most blatant attempt at a show about a relationship—went long stretches where the characters didn’t interact. There was no love scene. No real commitment to a love story outside of the gimmick of the sitcoms.

    Marvel has plenty of great love stories but the MCU has not done an effective job of building them. So it’s not a good comparison.

  5. #305
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    Putting aside Dean Cain bc I don’t care what that dude has to say.

    Dana Daleny openly supported Jon on social media.

    And Bitsie Tulloch liked a ton of the tweets introducing Jon as bisexual.

    If Erica Durance wasn’t completely social media inept (she really is, her fans tease her) I’m sure she would have liked it too.

    So Daddy can complain all he wants, but Mama was happy.

  6. #306
    Mighty Member witchboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nelliebly View Post
    Putting aside Dean Cain bc I don’t care what that dude has to say.

    Dana Daleny openly supported Jon on social media.

    And Bitsie Tulloch liked a ton of the tweets introducing Jon as bisexual.

    If Erica Durance wasn’t completely social media inept (she really is, her fans tease her) I’m sure she would have liked it too.

    So Daddy can complain all he wants, but Mama was happy.
    That's great to hear support from Dana Delaney and Bitsie Tulloch.
    I have wondered what Teri Hatcher had to say.

  7. #307
    Ultimate Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneveryfineday View Post
    I hope that after all this has settled down Jon can take a breather so we can get to know more of him as a character. Does he still go to college? What does he do in his spare time? What are his likes and dislikes? At least he’s set to appear in more books so hopefully there’s more room to explore that stuff.
    What else is he scheduled to appear in? Was thinking he was going to join the JL but unfortunately it looks like Bendis is just going to do his own thing for now. I am interested in seeing Jon interact with the wider DCU more.
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  8. #308
    Fantastic Member Writerblog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nelliebly View Post
    The MCU isnít distancing from the tropeóitís distanced from romance and sexuality period. There have been countless articles written about this. With rare exceptions, the MCU doesnít engage enough in genuine relationships outside of the core heroics for there to ::be:: any stakes in that regard. Thatís not actually a good thing and has been heavily criticized in major publications and by a lot of critics.

    I like the MCU a lot. But they have yet to actually produce a love story thatís actually on the level of Superman and Lois Lane in terms of just sheer commitment to love and romance. They were all inspired by Reeve and Kidder but didnít actually get there. They got close with Pepper and Tony but they didnít really get there because of the MCU need to make everything a damn joke. They could have gotten there with TíChalla and Nakia if it were not for Chadwickís tragic passing may he Rest In Peace.

    Trying to compare romance and sex with the MCU doesnít work. Even Wandavisionótheir most blatant attempt at a show about a relationshipówent long stretches where the characters didnít interact. There was no love scene. No real commitment to a love story outside of the gimmick of the sitcoms.

    Marvel has plenty of great love stories but the MCU has not done an effective job of building them. So itís not a good comparison.
    I disagree, wandavision did great with romance. It really sold the romance that on movies barely had space to play.

    I think Peggy/Steve was the closest to a Lois/Clark, but it had the problem that she stayed on the past.
    MCU often uses friendships instead of romantic relationships

  9. #309
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nelliebly View Post
    The MCU isn’t distancing from the trope—it’s distanced from romance and sexuality period. There have been countless articles written about this. With rare exceptions, the MCU doesn’t engage enough in genuine relationships outside of the core heroics for there to ::be:: any stakes in that regard. That’s not actually a good thing and has been heavily criticized in major publications and by a lot of critics.

    I like the MCU a lot. But they have yet to actually produce a love story that’s actually on the level of Superman and Lois Lane in terms of just sheer commitment to love and romance. They were all inspired by Reeve and Kidder but didn’t actually get there. They got close with Pepper and Tony but they didn’t really get there because of the MCU need to make everything a damn joke. They could have gotten there with T’Challa and Nakia if it were not for Chadwick’s tragic passing may he Rest In Peace.

    Trying to compare romance and sex with the MCU doesn’t work. Even Wandavision—their most blatant attempt at a show about a relationship—went long stretches where the characters didn’t interact. There was no love scene. No real commitment to a love story outside of the gimmick of the sitcoms.

    Marvel has plenty of great love stories but the MCU has not done an effective job of building them. So it’s not a good comparison.
    I disagree,pepper and tony beats clois by a mile and then more.Also,i would rather have something heart felt and good intense romance that's subtle ..Than mushy shlok anyday.The reeves kidder movie wanted to Portray the up in the clouds kinda romance.That worked cause that superman had that kinda tone.Doesn't mean everyone should follow the lead.They made a romance movie..These guys aren't.They made action comedies.I don't really care what's healthy or not.. Action characters treating action as an afterthought is not good for the character.Every story needs to have a point.The point of superman ain't clark and lois relationship.Period.

    And i believe,clois has sent the cynical sassy lady action down the drain.I like lois..Not lady clark.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 10-13-2021 at 09:42 PM.
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  10. #310
    Superman and Wonder Woman
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    If this whole "modern" Superman fails and DC de-ages Jon, I think it'll really put the nail in the coffin for him. Which sucks, because I think Jon would be perfect not to replace Clark, but to expand on the non-costume side of DC Comics. The side-liners like in Astro City. That's just me though. Best of luck Jon Kent.

  11. #311
    Superman and Wonder Woman
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    Also itís extremely toxic to imply that a relationship between any two people including two men is more equal bc of physical powers. Weíve been over this a million times with the Superwonder stuffóthatís gross.
    If you're the world's strongest man who spends your days saving the world from any threat or danger, there's nothing wrong with desiring a partner who you can see as your equal. That's just basic human desire. Kurt Busiek, and Mark Millar, have given us some interesting takes on Superman's love life. Kurt Busiek showing us it just works with The Samaritan and Winged Victory (though I wish there was more stories ). The Utopian shows us it can be suffocating being with someone like Superman and life maybe better being with someone like you. Post-Crisis Superman stories showed us being married to a normal person can work. There are bumps in the road, but it works. Having someone as an equal comes in different ways. Talia and Selene can be seen as equals to Bruce in many ways. Lois Lane can be seen as equal to Clark in their relationship as reporters.

    Anyways, my comment isn't about Superman and Wonder Woman, I don't care about that. It's your comment of two people with physical powers seeing each other as equals is "toxic" and "gross". That's stupid. Which why I listed those writers and post-crisis Superman's marriage to Lois Lane. Much as I don't want to type this out, Geoff Johns's was also right. Anyways, my point is that it's not inherently toxic or gross, there are many different avenues you can take the story. Toxic and gross can actually be one of them. Write a story where two characters with similar powers wasn't good for either of them romantically. I hate it, but the "perfect mate" is another one too. There are many ways you can take this, just don't forget to write a good story.

  12. #312
    I'm at least a C-Lister! exile001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneveryfineday View Post
    My least favorite news reaction comes courtesy of Nigel Farage
    Nigel Farage is an all round piece of garbage (he's an on again-off again politician for the far right). He is truly an embarrassment and I apologise on behalf of my country.
    Just. Be. Nice.

  13. #313
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    I was for Jon being gay a while back and I'm good with him being bi. The only downside is the click bait pot stirring news outlets are doing to purposely foment outrage for revenue.

    I hate hate hate that his love interest is a reporter and fanboy of Jon's mother, though. Sadly, the trend of "like his dad, but" seems to be continuing with Jon.
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  14. #314
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DABellWrites View Post
    If you're the world's strongest man who spends your days saving the world from any threat or danger, there's nothing wrong with desiring a partner who you can see as your equal. That's just basic human desire.
    Sure, but "your equal" is different for everybody. Clark's love for Lois is because of their connection on a personal and mental level, not that both can punch a mountain (obviously). For some characters, power level equality would be fitting because that's what they're into, for others it's superficial. If both can punch a mountain but have nothing in common, the former trait quickly becomes meaningless (if not immediately).

    I can certainly see how, particularly for a character that's being touted as "Dad why didn't you see this and react differently," it'd seem like (at least) a step back to emphasize both having powers as what makes the relationship better. And for Taylor to use Clark and Lois's relationship as a comparison and trying to paint L&C as coming up short for this reason is, frankly... bullsh*t.
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  15. #315
    Fantastic Member Writerblog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DABellWrites View Post
    If you're the world's strongest man who spends your days saving the world from any threat or danger, there's nothing wrong with desiring a partner who you can see as your equal. That's just basic human desire. Kurt Busiek, and Mark Millar, have given us some interesting takes on Superman's love life. Kurt Busiek showing us it just works with The Samaritan and Winged Victory (though I wish there was more stories ). The Utopian shows us it can be suffocating being with someone like Superman and life maybe better being with someone like you. Post-Crisis Superman stories showed us being married to a normal person can work. There are bumps in the road, but it works. Having someone as an equal comes in different ways. Talia and Selene can be seen as equals to Bruce in many ways. Lois Lane can be seen as equal to Clark in their relationship as reporters.

    Anyways, my comment isn't about Superman and Wonder Woman, I don't care about that. It's your comment of two people with physical powers seeing each other as equals is "toxic" and "gross". That's stupid. Which why I listed those writers and post-crisis Superman's marriage to Lois Lane. Much as I don't want to type this out, Geoff Johns's was also right. Anyways, my point is that it's not inherently toxic or gross, there are many different avenues you can take the story. Toxic and gross can actually be one of them. Write a story where two characters with similar powers wasn't good for either of them romantically. I hate it, but the "perfect mate" is another one too. There are many ways you can take this, just don't forget to write a good story.
    What? are we talking about Superman or Lex Luthor here?

    Loving someone for me have nothing to do with being equal, but being fair, good person and loyal.

    I really want nothing to do with the mentality that people want only to fall in love with people equal to them on physical strenght.

    Quote Originally Posted by JAK View Post
    Sure, but "your equal" is different for everybody. Clark's love for Lois is because of their connection on a personal and mental level, not that both can punch a mountain (obviously). For some characters, power level equality would be fitting because that's what they're into, for others it's superficial. If both can punch a mountain but have nothing in common, the former trait quickly becomes meaningless (if not immediately).

    I can certainly see how, particularly for a character that's being touted as "Dad why didn't you see this and react differently," it'd seem like (at least) a step back to emphasize both having powers as what makes the relationship better. And for Taylor to use Clark and Lois's relationship as a comparison and trying to paint L&C as coming up short for this reason is, frankly... bullsh*t.
    Well Jon didn't fall in love wih Jay because of powers, it seems like a later reveal being spoiled by interviews (again)
    Last edited by Writerblog; 10-14-2021 at 10:51 AM.

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