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  1. #391
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    Frankly, I'm not sure I believe this last part especially considering the high-profile IP involved. It makes for a great story of "sticking it to the man to do the right thing" but I suspect it is simply that, a good story. I think this was a very calculated move by all levels involved from the start.
    if this was pre planned grand scheme.Bendis would have been leaving clues and moments left,right and centre.Considering the guy comes of pretty blunt.Granted i am not that familiar with his writing.But,his jon had zero inkling of coming out.
    "I swear to devote my life to the destruction of piracy, greed, cruelty and injustice! And my sons, and their sons, shall follow me!"

  2. #392
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    if this was pre planned grand scheme.Bendis would have been leaving clues and moments left,right and centre.Considering the guy comes of pretty blunt.Granted i am not that familiar with his writing.But,his jon had zero inkling of coming out.
    Perhaps, but they did make Jon the new Superman which I argue could have been a big clue. The headline "Superman comes out as bisexual" has a much greater impact than "Superman's Son or Superboy comes out as bisexual", think about it.

    Edit - Although I think the headline should have been "Superman comes out as gay" because, frankly, I don't ever see Jon dating women if this change is embraced by the audience. It is akin to how Wonder Woman is straight in actuality bisexual in name, the same goes for Catwoman. I do wonder how bisexual people feel about these lopsided portrayals of bisexual characters in comic books?
    Last edited by Celgress; 10-19-2021 at 12:53 PM.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  3. #393
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    Perhaps, but they did make Jon the new Superman which I argue could have been a big clue. The headline "Superman comes out as bisexual" has a much greater impact than "Superman's Son or Superboy comes out as bisexual", think about it.
    But,that's not how the headlines are being done,as far as i can see.They use at best "dc's new superman comes out as bisexual".superman's son is still being touted.Many here have said that itself had more heavy impact.It being superman's son that caused the "discussions".Heck!His book is "son of kal el".
    "I swear to devote my life to the destruction of piracy, greed, cruelty and injustice! And my sons, and their sons, shall follow me!"

  4. #394
    Fantastic Member The Frog Bros's Avatar
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    Speaking of Bendis, I saw a tweet he posted noting that he had friends, colleagues, etc. congratulating him on Jon's outing. He played it off like, nah thats Taylor's thing guys, and it was just ill informed reactions but a conspiracy theorist may say otherwise.

    But then again, he also said people were asking him how he ever got Marvel to go along with it, so there's that...
    Last edited by The Frog Bros; 10-19-2021 at 09:09 AM.
    "There is nothing quite so perfect as the exact way in which comics combine the word and image." --Alan Moore
    "Before it was a Bomb, the Bomb was an Idea. Superman, however, was a Faster, Stronger, Better Idea." --Grant Morrison

  5. #395
    Incredible Member Xheight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    I don't care.I am not into business side.I like stories.if the guys don't do market study and don't know their audience that's on them.Regardless,I wouldn't lose my mind if any superman in my story turns out to a giant pink elephant.
    Well that is part of it when something is so didactic that it breaks the story aspect to preach and lecture or even set a marker for a marketing demographic that leaves some (an unquantifiable amount) to wonder when the stories will be told.
    And if the whole wide world stops singing
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  6. #396
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchboy View Post
    I don't see what valid reason there would be for Jon not to be bi.
    Neither do I but the world is a big place. I'll entertain the notion that a valid argument might be out there somewhere. We won't find it on Fox, but it's possible there's a argument that isn't just homophobia in a thin disguise.

    If nothing else, I can appreciate the argument that all this attention on Jon's orientation is, while welcome, a decade too late to be truly cutting edge and is now just riding the trend, trying to be on the right side of history long after the right side was already recognized.

    I'm much more interested in the idea of Jon tackling real, root problems than I am his orientation. I've seen the "hero comes out of the closet" story, and while we need more LBGT+ characters in Big 2 comics and I'll always support the effort (when it's done well), this is far from new. But Jon dealing with something like climate change? Haven't seen that very often.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  7. #397
    Astonishing Member Mutant God's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I'm much more interested in the idea of Jon tackling real, root problems than I am his orientation. But Jon dealing with something like climate change? Haven't seen that very often.
    So am I, I'm more interested in the villains hes fighting, interesting villains who represent the problems can lead to good stories. If hes dealing with real issues maybe he'll deal with energy resources like nuclear power as in Nuclear Man?

  8. #398
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mutant God View Post
    So am I, I'm more interested in the villains hes fighting, interesting villains who represent the problems can lead to good stories. If hes dealing with real issues maybe he'll deal with energy resources like nuclear power as in Nuclear Man?
    Same here, I couldn't care less about his sexual orientation. The one plus I will give Jon being bisexual (along with his activism) is it helps set him apart from daddy dearest which he has desperately needed up until this point.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  9. #399
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xheight View Post
    Well that is part of it when something is so didactic that it breaks the story aspect to preach and lecture or even set a marker for a marketing demographic that leaves some (an unquantifiable amount) to wonder when the stories will be told.
    dude!where have you been?Have you read a superman comic?The guy made a career out of lectures..He's metropolis's dad.Jon so far has had zero "I am your light and shining example,Thou shall follow me as thy savior" moments.He's just doing his thing.The only abruption was caused by the age up,which was done badly.It's not something that can't be fixed.
    "I swear to devote my life to the destruction of piracy, greed, cruelty and injustice! And my sons, and their sons, shall follow me!"

  10. #400
    Ultimate Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Listening to the PKJ WB interview, it sounds like the decision to make Jon bi had been made before he had even came on board. He didn’t really have a part in that decision. I’m not sure now if it was Taylor or editorial who first came up with the idea now.
    For when my rants on the forums just arenít enough: https://thevindicativevordan.tumblr.com/

  11. #401
    Fantastic Member oneveryfineday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Listening to the PKJ WB interview, it sounds like the decision to make Jon bi had been made before he had even came on board. He didnít really have a part in that decision. Iím not sure now if it was Taylor or editorial who first came up with the idea now.
    It was editorial who came up with the idea first:

    - ďBefore I could even pitch it, Jamie Rich, who was the editor at the time at DC Comics, said: ĎTom, thereís been an idea floating around DC Comics. What do you think of this?íĒ Taylor said. ďAnd Iím like: ĎWell, I was going to pitch a queer superman anyway, so weíre on the same page before Iíve even written a page.í It worked out great,Ē Taylor added. x

    But they didn't inform the higher ups lol:

    - The creators involved Meghan Fitzmartin writing Tim Drake stories in the anthology Batman: Urban Legends and Tom Taylor on Superman: Son Of Kal-El. They independently thought it would be an interesting take on the characters, might make a twist that could inform new stories, and might reflect the desires and wishes of new audiences without turning off the old. They each had their stories approved by their direct editors at DC Comics, but higher-up editorial only found out about what was going on when the comics were well underway. And in Batman: Urban Legends #6's case, already sent out from the printers. In both cases, this necessitated some urgent editorial meetings to a) check what was going on and b) suggest that maybe people might mention it a little further advance next time. There was no push back against the idea, no pulping this time, just the company exploring the implications and consequences. And, in the end, the books continued pretty much as planned. x

  12. #402
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneveryfineday View Post
    It was editorial who came up with the idea first:

    - “Before I could even pitch it, Jamie Rich, who was the editor at the time at DC Comics, said: ‘Tom, there’s been an idea floating around DC Comics. What do you think of this?’” Taylor said. “And I’m like: ‘Well, I was going to pitch a queer superman anyway, so we’re on the same page before I’ve even written a page.’ It worked out great,” Taylor added. x

    But they didn't inform the higher ups lol:

    - The creators involved Meghan Fitzmartin writing Tim Drake stories in the anthology Batman: Urban Legends and Tom Taylor on Superman: Son Of Kal-El. They independently thought it would be an interesting take on the characters, might make a twist that could inform new stories, and might reflect the desires and wishes of new audiences without turning off the old. They each had their stories approved by their direct editors at DC Comics, but higher-up editorial only found out about what was going on when the comics were well underway. And in Batman: Urban Legends #6's case, already sent out from the printers. In both cases, this necessitated some urgent editorial meetings to a) check what was going on and b) suggest that maybe people might mention it a little further advance next time. There was no push back against the idea, no pulping this time, just the company exploring the implications and consequences. And, in the end, the books continued pretty much as planned. x
    Some sneaky editors at DC...

  13. #403
    Extraordinary Member HsssH's Avatar
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    But those statements kinda contradict each other, no? Second one makes it sound like it was Taylor who came up with this, while first one says that editors already had this idea. It is also questionable if "idea floating around DC comics" does not contradict "higher ups didn't know".

    Cynic in my says that higher ups were well aware of this and it was green lighted by them before Taylor was even picked for this project.

  14. #404
    Fantastic Member oneveryfineday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HsssH View Post
    But those statements kinda contradict each other, no? Second one makes it sound like it was Taylor who came up with this, while first one says that editors already had this idea. It is also questionable if "idea floating around DC comics" does not contradict "higher ups didn't know".

    Cynic in my says that higher ups were well aware of this and it was green lighted by them before Taylor was even picked for this project.
    I donít see the statements contradicting each other, just the finer details getting muddled. BC is right that Taylor did come up with his own queer Superman pitch, and the ďDC ComicsĒ Taylor referred to probably means the people he was reporting directly to.

    Thereís a couple more things to suggest that Jonís sexuality wasnít determined until recently. The first comes from the EVS leak a couple months which mean this requires a big olí ďCONSPIRACY THEORYĒ hat. EVS said:

    ďI have a source within DC Comics who is aware of the project and notified me about it in exasperation,Ē Van Sciver said when reached for comment about the rumor. ďIím told itís a few issues away. Iím confident in my source, but perhaps by leaking the news, I may have altered the course of Jonathan Kentís sexual identity. We'll see!Ē

    Wild, wild guess, but his comments could imply that DC was still considering the storyline and the leak was an attempt to scare DC off of it. *takes off big ďCONSPIRACY THEORYĒ hat*

    The second thing comes from BC, and from them it does sound like DC was still making decisions at the time. When BC followed up on the leak that Jon would come out, they reported: ď DC Comics is currently intending him to be portrayed as a queer young man, though the exact labels are up in the air. Or up in the sky. Gay, bi, pan, it may be a while till this comes to fruition on the page.Ē So Jonís big coming out story was already being written/published but DC hadnít even decided on his sexuality? Thatís very strange. I think Taylor + the editors probably already had it down, but the higher ups had double check everything they had to make sure it didnít contradict anything else. The language ďcurrently intendingĒ also led some of us here to interpret that DC still hadnít committed to anything yet.

    I donít know if anyone was trying to be sneaky by having Tim and Jon come out, it could be just down to poor communication and office management lol. The original 5G plan was for Jon to date Jenny and somewhere along the way that changed. It would be interesting to know the full story and timeline, if we ever get it.

  15. #405
    Astonishing Member Fergus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HsssH View Post
    But those statements kinda contradict each other, no? Second one makes it sound like it was Taylor who came up with this, while first one says that editors already had this idea. It is also questionable if "idea floating around DC comics" does not contradict "higher ups didn't know".

    Cynic in my says that higher ups were well aware of this and it was green lighted by them before Taylor was even picked for this project.
    Agreed. Superman is a Highvalue IP no way in Hell would the writers and editors make this kind of call. That is way way above their paygrade.

    DC couldn't even change the Robin as planned when Morrison killed off Damian. WB over ruled them and Morrison.

    Such a huge change to an asset like Superman would NEVER be done without The parent company [the owners of the asset] greenlighting it.

    It's shocking that BC and those interviewed think readers gullible enough to buy that and surprising to see that some actually bought that.

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