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  1. #76
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Even "Everyone loves Ivy" felt like a proto-HiC when you see the crazy nonsensical feats and moral logic.
    I laugthed when i saw Barry, Wally and Wallace get taked down so easily by Selina, the stupidity in the scene is just so big that i can't even be annoyed it.
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  2. #77
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    That's such a "stick and carrot" situation, only I see no carrot .
    Might as well be, i don't even remember why i keep coming back after a while because i certanly wans't enjoying it lol,
    Last edited by TheCape; 10-19-2021 at 09:38 AM.
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  3. #78
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Even "Everyone loves Ivy" felt like a proto-HiC when you see the crazy nonsensical feats and moral logic.
    What weird moral logic did it have? I either forgot, didn't notice, or dropped the comic before that (Was Batman#42 vol 5 by the way).

    And man, fucking, Selina knocking down 3 Flashes so casually, even if you excuse that because they're being mind controlled they lack the speedforce hacks to protect them, she still shouldn't manage to react that fast, much less do so 3 times, that's like a less dumb version of Identity Crisis' "Deathstroke moves faster than the Wally somehow, incapacitates Black Cannary with a burlap sack, and his willpower negates Kyle's ring"... Like, yeah.

    Then fucking HiC topped that with that dumbass scene where Harley more or less soloes the fucking Trinity, like, if you excuse and say Batman was super stressed and became a worse fighter because of it, and this is one of those stories where Kryptonite incapacitates Supes like his testicles are being hammered, nothing should've stopped Diana from looking at the situation, walking up to Harley, and easily grabbing and subduing her, but what actually happened is that Diana was just as incompetent as Batman and Supes there, hell, you can even say she was worse... And then after Harley starts to run, apparently Batman, Supes or Diana don't consider the possibility of going after her, yeah, good writing.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    Might as well be, i don't even remember why i keep coming back after a while because i certanly wans't enjoying it lol,
    Maybe it's because it was a habit, even if you don't like it lol.

    Next time at least suffer with something that has the metaphorical carrot, or you'll likely have to put up with another situation like Tom King's Batman run .

  4. #79
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    What weird moral logic did it have? I either forgot, didn't notice, or dropped the comic before that (Was Batman#42 vol 5 by the way).
    Poison Ivy has apparently never killed anyone and her good intentions and love for Harley is enough to earn her a slap on the wrist for mind-controlling the entire world.

  5. #80
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Poison Ivy has apparently never killed anyone and her good intentions and love for Harley is enough to earn her a slap on the wrist for mind-controlling the entire world.
    Ah yes, the "never killed anyone" excuse, Hulk gets that one too lol.

    And honestly, even if we believe this "Ivy never killed anyone" nonsense, it's not for lack of trying...

  6. #81
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Ah yes, the "never killed anyone" excuse, Hulk gets that one too lol.

    And honestly, even if we believe this "Ivy never killed anyone" nonsense, it's not for lack of trying...
    I guest that Ivy also made complex mathematics and equations during her attacks in order to avoid people getting injured, she is scientific like Banner, so of course she knows that stuff
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  7. #82
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    I guest that Ivy also made complex mathematics and equations during her attacks in order to avoid people getting injured, she is scientific like Banner, so of course she knows that stuff
    Must be a green character thing, next we'll learn Annihilus did that too .

  8. #83
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Ah yes, the "never killed anyone" excuse, Hulk gets that one too lol.

    And honestly, even if we believe this "Ivy never killed anyone" nonsense, it's not for lack of trying...
    Well, at least with Hulk he ends up being a Superhero protagonist more often than not so I get why you don't want him having a bunch of body bags to his name (even if it strains logic) because he's not The Punisher, but Ivy is an established Supervillain with an established modus operandi that often has her killing people.

    Then again people also freaked out when King wrote her killing a bunch of people (that he retconned) because certain Ivy fans prefer her not be all that villainous, so you can't win over everybody.

  9. #84
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Well, at least with Hulk he ends up being a Superhero protagonist more often than not so I get why you don't want him having a bunch of body bags to his name (even if it strains logic) because he's not The Punisher, but Ivy is an established Supervillain with an established modus operandi that often has her killing people.
    Yeah, Hulk is more forgivable but, y'know, the whole magic math thing is just dumb, but hey, not the first time super-hero shit uses retcon to remove characters' bad actions lol.

    Then again people also freaked out when King wrote her killing a bunch of people (that he retconned) because certain Ivy fans prefer her not be all that villainous, so you can't win over everybody.
    That's just weird, Ivy I remember has her generally trying to at least kill some people, what changed? 'Cause I don't see how something like, being in a relationship with Harley would make it much better lol.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Yeah, Hulk is more forgivable but, y'know, the whole magic math thing is just dumb, but hey, not the first time super-hero shit uses retcon to remove characters' bad actions lol.



    That's just weird, Ivy I remember has her generally trying to at least kill some people, what changed? 'Cause I don't see how something like, being in a relationship with Harley would make it much better lol.
    It's kind of like the Magneto treatment back here in Marvel over the years. For example, Magneto started off as (and kind of still is) a mutant supremacist, but as his story got fleshed out, his supremacist tendencies turned out to stem from having survived one of the most notorious examples of humanity's inhumanity to its disfavored denizens and thus developed a deep-rooted (and sometimes-founded) distrust of how humans would treat mutants when relatively minor, if not literally skin-deep, differences were enough to provoke genocidal hatred between fellow humans. As people have become increasingly aware in real life of how genocides are prepared, begun, and ultimately carried out and how persistently entrenched bigotry can be in the real world, it's somewhat harder to cast him purely as a villain, even if his usual and historical methods of resistance to human society's antipathy toward mutants are quite objectionable, to say the least.

    Somewhat similarly, with Poison Ivy at DC, as people in real life have become more aware of just how much damage has been inflicted on the planet and its ecosystem through human corporate greed and corruption over the years, even stymying most legal attempts at staving off what seems to be impending climate catastrophe, if not outright collapse, it's also hard to cast her purely as a villain. The common thread between them, though, is that they're complex enough, whether as anti-villains or even sometimes anti-heroes, to make sound points about the problems of the society they exist in, problems that often reflect those in our own society, that the readers (and maybe the heroes) end up questioning their own morality and the morality of the status quo if that status quo is so oppressive and destructive in its own right that it can provoke the kind of extremism exhibited by the likes of Magneto and Ivy.
    Last edited by Huntsman Spider; 10-20-2021 at 03:00 PM.
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  11. #86
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    It's kind of like the Magneto treatment back here in Marvel over the years. For example, Magneto started off as (and kind of still is) a mutant supremacist, but as his story got fleshed out, his supremacist tendencies turned out to stem from having survived one of the most notorious examples of humanity's inhumanity to its disfavored denizens and thus developed a deep-rooted (and sometimes-founded) distrust of how humans would treat mutants when relatively minor, if not literally skin-deep, differences were enough to provoke genocidal hatred between fellow humans. As people have become increasingly aware in real life of how genocides are prepared, begun, and ultimately carried out and how persistently entrenched bigotry can be in the real world, it's somewhat harder to cast him purely as a villain, even if his usual and historical methods of resistance to human society's antipathy toward mutants are quite objectionable, to say the least.

    Somewhat similarly, with Poison Ivy at DC, as people in real life have become more aware of just how much damage has been inflicted on the planet and its ecosystem through human corporate greed and corruption over the years, even stymying most legal attempts at staving off what seems to be impending climate catastrophe, if not outright collapse, it's also hard to cast her purely as a villain. The common thread between them, though, is that they're complex enough, whether as anti-villains or even sometimes anti-heroes, to make sound points about the problems of the society they exist in, problems that often reflect those in our own society, that the readers (and maybe the heroes) end up questioning their own morality and the morality of the status quo if that status quo is so oppressive and destructive in its own right that it can provoke the kind of extremism exhibited by the likes of Magneto and Ivy.
    While that's cool and all, Magneto and Ivy have shown clear disgust for humanity in general and tried to kill more innocents than anything.

    They may have points, but hardly were doing it the right way.

    At least Magneto calmed down, I dunno about Ivy, but dating a psychopath like Harley doesn't really make her look good lol.

  12. #87
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    While that's cool and all, Magneto and Ivy have shown clear disgust for humanity in general and tried to kill more innocents than anything.

    They may have points, but hardly were doing it the right way.

    At least Magneto calmed down, I dunno about Ivy, but dating a psychopath like Harley doesn't really make her look good lol.
    Well, DC sort of pretends that Harley did absolutely no wrong and it was a victim, so she can team up with DC with absolutely not issue, so Harley is not a psychopath as far as editorial is concerned (except when she kind of is for the lols)
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  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    While that's cool and all, Magneto and Ivy have shown clear disgust for humanity in general and tried to kill more innocents than anything.

    They may have points, but hardly were doing it the right way.

    At least Magneto calmed down, I dunno about Ivy, but dating a psychopath like Harley doesn't really make her look good lol.
    True, though I would argue that Magneto's and Poison Ivy's misanthropy is generally rooted in personal sustained trauma that they've projected onto humanity as a whole. That said, I'd agree with you that their tactics and strategies for addressing the injustices they've experienced and witnessed are definitely the wrong approach. As for whether Ivy's calmed down like Magneto somewhat did, she's currently split into two entities, a more innocent, childlike Ivy and an even more overtly misanthropic "Queen Ivy," so it's kind of a mixed bag, to say the least.
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  14. #89
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    Well, DC sort of pretends that Harley did absolutely no wrong and it was a victim, so she can team up with DC with absolutely not issue, so Harley is not a psychopath as far as editorial is concerned (except when she kind of is for the lols)
    Figures it would be like that lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    True, though I would argue that Magneto's and Poison Ivy's misanthropy is generally rooted in personal sustained trauma that they've projected onto humanity as a whole. That said, I'd agree with you that their tactics and strategies for addressing the injustices they've experienced and witnessed are definitely the wrong approach.
    Yeah, trying to make a point by doing the same-ish things that were done to you is the wrong way to approach it lol.

    As for whether Ivy's calmed down like Magneto somewhat did, she's currently split into two entities, a more innocent, childlike Ivy and an even more overtly misanthropic "Queen Ivy," so it's kind of a mixed bag, to say the least.
    There are two Ivys now? Man I'm out of the loop.

    Is Harley dating both? 'Cause I get the feeling she would try that lol.

  15. #90
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    Well, DC sort of pretends that Harley did absolutely no wrong and it was a victim, so she can team up with DC with absolutely not issue, so Harley is not a psychopath as far as editorial is concerned (except when she kind of is for the lols)
    Ugh, don't remind me...
    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    There are two Ivys now? Man I'm out of the loop.

    Is Harley dating both? 'Cause I get the feeling she would try that lol.
    She's trying to figure that out.

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