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  1. #301
    Mighty Member Sylarmax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ermac View Post
    So far, Duggan's work in Marauders and X-Men has been nowhere near his Uncanny Avengers run.

    Let's hope he can turn this ship around.
    X10000

    Uncanny Avengers>>≥>>>>>>>>> new Duggan Zzzzzzz

  2. #302
    Mighty Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    Gerry Dugan's X-men Infinity story has tainted him as a writer for me.

    Team books in general have the problem of really poor character work, and instead just giving each team member a cool but shallow big moment every few issues. Jason Aaron is super bad about it and I'm seeing signs of it here. Its a huge problem with Duggan on Marauders in particular.

    I'm not really a Jean fan, but I'd really just like some consistency. She has seemed so ludicrously overpowered in this series while being so incompetent and weak in others. She's nowhere near as bad as Wolverine has been in this relaunch in that regard, but she's the second most notable example of it for me.

  3. #303
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    Gerry Dugan's X-men Infinity story has tainted him as a writer for me.

    Team books in general have the problem of really poor character work, and instead just giving each team member a cool but shallow big moment every few issues. Jason Aaron is super bad about it and I'm seeing signs of it here. Its a huge problem with Duggan on Marauders in particular.

    I'm not really a Jean fan, but I'd really just like some consistency. She has seemed so ludicrously overpowered in this series while being so incompetent and weak in others. She's nowhere near as bad as Wolverine has been in this relaunch in that regard, but she's the second most notable example of it for me.
    Duggan is writing Jean how she should be. She has been powerful and competent in most places this era except under Hickman in X-men. Percy did well with her in X-Force and Duggan did in Cable. With that said, Hickman or rather Dautermann did good by her in that GSX issue. I dont really think she's been as inconsistent when you take Hickmans stuff off the board

    I can definitely understand the concern with Duggan after Maraurders, but so far I dont think thats been the case over here. The first 3 issues were definitely team focused. This was the first spotlight issue and it was welcomed after having such heavy action in the first arc. Jean didnt really do much in #3 so i was here for him giving her thi after she took a backseat
    Last edited by Havok83; 10-15-2021 at 05:46 PM.

  4. #304
    Mighty Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Duggan is writing Jean how she should be. She has been powerful and competent in most places this era except under Hickman in X-men. Percy did well with her in X-Force and Duggan did in Cable. With that said, Hickman or rather Dautermann did good by her in that GSX issue. I dont really think she's been as inconsistent when you take Hickmans stuff off the board

    I can definitely understand the concern with Duggan after Maraurders, but so far I dont think thats been the case over here. The first 3 issues were definitely team focused. This was the first spotlight issue and it was welcomed after having such heavy action in the first arc. Jean didnt really do much in #3 so i was here for him giving her thi after she took a backseat
    I'll just say I'm a little worried going forward. Its something to watch out for. Its definitely not as bad as Marauders or Jason Aaron's Avengers has been on that front. And honestly the worst thing I can say about these first few issues is that I just haven't found them very interesting personally. They are at absolute worst just OK. And its only issue 4, so its perfectly possible to balance things out properly with time.

  5. #305
    Astonishing Member Hulkout42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    In case anyone's interested, this is what I've been able to find out about Nightmare's powers and abilities:

    Nightmare is a nigh-omnipotent, nigh-omniscient and nigh-omnipresent entity who rules the Dream Dimension. He also has the ability to draw power from the psychic energies of the subconscious minds of dreaming beings.

    Nightmare is able to capture a sleeping person's astral form and bring it to his realm. There they are tormented in various ways as he chooses. Nightmare can summon a number of lower beings in his realm such as succubi to do his bidding. Nightmare can summon his mount, Dreamstalker when needed. Under normal conditions, Nightmare cannot affect an individual who is awake. However, his images and other creations can continue to haunt a person in their waking hours.

    Nightmare has been shown capable of simultaneously subduing two Earth demigods, an Eternal, an Elder God, and a genius-level human teenager with ease through magic while assessing their worst fears from the darkest crevices of their minds, though is actually capable of sustaining reasonable physical harm with one strike from Hercules. His existence and vast knowledge is known to the Council of Godheads. As long as there are beings that dream, Nightmare will exist. While he has been defeated, he can never truly be destroyed.
    Then he got nerfed heavily for this.

  6. #306
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Well...he has been defeated before so there is precedent.
    It's not out of the realm of possibility for Jean, who has OLTP-flex to put him in his place, considering her forte is the mindscape.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Planet Arakko, FOREVER!!!

  7. #307
    Mighty Member MechaJeanix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    Gerry Dugan's X-men Infinity story has tainted him as a writer for me.

    Team books in general have the problem of really poor character work, and instead just giving each team member a cool but shallow big moment every few issues. Jason Aaron is super bad about it and I'm seeing signs of it here. Its a huge problem with Duggan on Marauders in particular.

    I'm not really a Jean fan, but I'd really just like some consistency. She has seemed so ludicrously overpowered in this series while being so incompetent and weak in others. She's nowhere near as bad as Wolverine has been in this relaunch in that regard, but she's the second most notable example of it for me.
    I think there is a perception that Jean has been weak in this era, but outside of House of X #4 there is little evidence. Jean may be in a retro-costume but as far as her powers are concerned the feat focused fans are constantly adding feats from this current era in those "respect threads".

    Jean doesn't quite have the same air about her as from X-men Red but she's still a powerful character. I was watching a youtube review from a guy and he was going off about Nightmare being nerfed, and I would agree except he was put up against an omega mutant telepath. Which to me is what made the difference.

    There are many examples of impressive showings from many of the omega mutants in this era: Magneto, Vulcan, Monarch, Storm, etc. This issue was a way of showing that Jean is powerful and can stand up to this powerful demon. It was a fun little story and it was enjoyable for what it was. I liked the nightmares from Scott, Jean, and Laura. It was nice seeing Jean "save the day" as it were . Duggan's version of Jean definitely feels more like Tom Taylor's than say Ben Percy's (though I enjoyed Ben's version a lot).

    Duggan does give us little character moments sprinkled through the action and the monster of the week stories we are getting. Of course some characters like Rogue and Laura need more attention, and I like the story that is running in the background setting up a new villain and the story with the reporter starting to discover mutant resurrection.

  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hulkout42 View Post
    Then he got nerfed heavily for this.
    Most definitely! If Nightmare for all the power that he wields gets so easily punked out like this, then who isn't speared from jobbing. When major powerhouses are so easily dispatched the story loses any and all credibility, and the fact that many just shrug and say it's ok because it's an omega is getting old. Gone are the days when being omega was simply about potential and not guaranteeing an automatic win. Jean is powerful no doubt, but the enormous power she and the other omegas display is absurd. I think the worst example was Jamie birthing a fully functioning space station into existence from nothing, after that feat I checked out. Man, marvel as a whole really needs to clamp down on these astronomical displays of power. From Jason Aaron and his nonsense over in Avengers to the over the top omega feats of the x-books.

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by The tall man View Post
    Most definitely! If Nightmare for all the power that he wields gets so easily punked out like this, then who isn't speared from jobbing. When major powerhouses are so easily dispatched the story loses any and all credibility, and the fact that many just shrug and say it's ok because it's an omega is getting old. Gone are the days when being omega was simply about potential and not guaranteeing an automatic win. Jean is powerful no doubt, but the enormous power she and the other omegas display is absurd. I think the worst example was Jamie birthing a fully functioning space station into existence from nothing, after that feat I checked out. Man, marvel as a whole really needs to clamp down on these astronomical displays of power. From Jason Aaron and his nonsense over in Avengers to the over the top omega feats of the x-books.
    Well one thing you can guarantee with comics is inconsistency.One moment Jean will overpower Nightmare ,which I don't have too much issue with because it seemed to be a Halloween special and dreamscape fights are usually resolved by some happenstance anyway.My main issue now is the Omega TK power better not go conveniently missing when/If she faces Nimrod, but seeing how easily Kid Omega(her peer) was dispatched I don't expect much but more plot inconsistency when/if that happens.

  10. #310
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Duggan is writing Jean how she should be. She has been powerful and competent in most places this era except under Hickman in X-men. Percy did well with her in X-Force and Duggan did in Cable. With that said, Hickman or rather Dautermann did good by her in that GSX issue. I dont really think she's been as inconsistent when you take Hickmans stuff off the board.
    I completely agree with you about Duggan and Percy; they both get Jean perfectly. As I wrote elsewhere, where Duggan excels, especially in this issue, is in showcasing the facets that make her such a fascinatingly complex and mercurial character. While her altruism is innate, it is also magnified by deep guilt and a keen awareness of her own wrath and stunning power. Duggan managed to convey all of that here. He also revealed something new about Jean: On a subconscious level, she may be conflicted over her decision to revert to her old codename and costume, which introduces some interesting drives and motivations for her, including clinging to the past, i.e., her early adulthood, to forget what came after. Frankly, this is the sort of character establishment and development that has been sorely lacking this era as far as Jean is concerned. Not only did she deserve this, but so do the other characters in this series, and I hope they each get moments like these, too.

    However, while I understand many feel Hickman has nerfed Jean, House of X #4 notwithstanding (let's get real, she was used as a plot device), he did showcase her in Giant-Size X-Men: Jean Grey and Emma Frost beautifully, underscoring that she is the most powerful of the two telepaths. Furthermore, he also gave her brilliant scenes in X-Men #15 and #16, spotlighting not only her willingness to buck the system to fight alongside her friends and family but also to take the lead in refusing the offer to rejoin the Quiet Council and forming the new team. (Note: While she and Scott may have discussed doing this together, Hickman chose her to be the one to do the aforementioned in-panel, which were big moments for her). Finally, he gave her a fantastic feat in X-Men #21, highlighting both her power and the respect she has earned from mutants and non-mutant superheroes as a whole. I think it's only fair to give him credit for this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Jean didnt really do much in #3 so i was here for him giving her thi after she took a backseat
    Jean contained a nihility sphere, held back and shielded herself from the Evolutionary Guard, psi-linked the entire team, collected intel from the High Evolutionary, who later chose to speak with her privately, and introduced the decision to split the team, with which Scott agreed. She may not have had many splashy in-panel moments, like in this issue, but she was definitely central. Still, I get your point.

    Nevertheless, this is another thing I love about how Duggan has chosen to handle Jean: Even when she's not on the page, her presence and efforts are felt.

    Quote Originally Posted by MechaJeanix View Post
    I think there is a perception that Jean has been weak in this era, but outside of House of X #4 there is little evidence. Jean may be in a retro-costume but as far as her powers are concerned the feat focused fans are constantly adding feats from this current era in those "respect threads".
    I agree. Jean has had some fantastic feats this era, from psi-linking all of the mutants on Earth and those on the SWORD station orbiting Mars and using her telekinesis to cut the flow of blood to Deadpool's brain to hurling a skyscraper-sized space station at upwards of 11,200 mph to the edge of Mars' orbit and, in this issue, telepathically overwhelming Nightmare. (Note: She was also able to avoid detection and possession by Knull - a god - before ransacking his mind, so her feat against Nightmare, who, as a Class 3 Demon, is obviously beneath Knull, is totally in keeping with her power levels.)

    Quote Originally Posted by MechaJeanix View Post
    Jean doesn't quite have the same air about her as from X-men Red but she's still a powerful character. I was watching a youtube review from a guy and he was going off about Nightmare being nerfed, and I would agree except he was put up against an omega mutant telepath. Which to me is what made the difference.
    We may disagree on this, but I think, between the Hickman scenes I referenced above and Percy's and Duggan's scenes, she not only has the same air about her she had in X-Men: Red but also comes off stronger and somewhat more ambiguous and mysterious, which I like. Additionally, though I addressed why it's plausible for Jean to overpower Nightmare, the YouTube reviewer below does a great job of highlighting how strong she is. I love how much attention the video has garnered and how many people agree with him. (The video has 1k likes and 7 dislikes.)



    Quote Originally Posted by MechaJeanix View Post
    There are many examples of impressive showings from many of the omega mutants in this era: Magneto, Vulcan, Monarch, Storm, etc. This issue was a way of showing that Jean is powerful and can stand up to this powerful demon. It was a fun little story and it was enjoyable for what it was. I liked the nightmares from Scott, Jean, and Laura. It was nice seeing Jean "save the day" as it were . Duggan's version of Jean definitely feels more like Tom Taylor's than say Ben Percy's (though I enjoyed Ben's version a lot).
    I agree with most of this. Again, regarding Duggan's version of Jean, to me, she comes off as a perfect blend of Taylor's and Percy's versions. Though Duggan didn't depict Jean snapping, his word choices for her in this issue (e.g., "I could make matters worse for you"; "You risked much by entering my mind"; "I have your scent now. If I find you preying on us again...I will end you.") underscored that she can and would willingly "go there" if pushed too far.







    These moments were everything to me because they establish that she isn't nice for the sake of being nice or because she doesn't know how to be aggressive; she's nice because she is aware of her own temper and the damage she can do.

    Quote Originally Posted by MechaJeanix View Post
    Duggan does give us little character moments sprinkled through the action and the monster of the week stories we are getting. Of course some characters like Rogue and Laura need more attention, and I like the story that is running in the background setting up a new villain and the story with the reporter starting to discover mutant resurrection.
    I agree with all of this, too. Also, I have a feeling Duggan is going to give the other characters moments like he did Jean in this issue. As I noted before, he has already made it a point of including Sunfire's and Jean's Gala speeches, so I wouldn't be surprised if he intends to do the same with the other members of the team.

  11. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    Duggan says the next issue is a big one for Lorna!
    One can hope the next issue delves into her motivation.

  12. #312
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmc247 View Post
    One can hope the next issue delves into her motivation.
    Whether it's the next issue or another, I firmly believe he's going to explore her motivation and probably even include her Gala speech.

  13. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    Whether it's the next issue or another, I firmly believe he's going to explore her motivation and probably even include her Gala speech.
    I also believe it will happen eventually if the series stays with the same team and gets another year or two.

  14. #314
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmc247 View Post
    I also believe it will happen eventually if the series stays with the same team and gets another year or two.
    Oh, I think it'll happen before the year is up. And, of course, I hope this team continues together for a few years. I want to see them get to know each other and grow together.

  15. #315
    Astonishing Member Hulkout42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyCyclopsRLZ View Post
    Good thing this was merely a "fluffy filler while the baddie is gearing for genocide" kind of deal, lol. Are we seriously not going to discuss the hilarious possibility of Evil Orchis Dude fridging a sizeable portion of Arakko and Earth's populace adoring him for it?
    Well that really depends on just how powerful they make him, i mean will he be powerful enough to the point the Omegas have to take him on and lose some in the process? Because that would be interesting or will it be case where he is just placed on the level that this team faces him and wins with no real lose to them? Which i would consider more on the level of the threats they have faced so far such as Nightmare or HE who seemed to have been nerfed.

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