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  1. #1
    Fishy Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    Default Wonder Woman and Villain Reformation

    This was brought up in another thread, but I though it was interesting enough topic to warrant its own.

    Wonder Woman was originally a hero who made every effort to reform her villains, even dedicating a whole island to it. Over the years, that has been chipped away to varying degrees, giving us different level of how far Diana will go to reform villains, if at all.

    I feel a lot of this is very contextual, which is why I am not making it a poll.

    -

    To what extent do you feel Diana should she get involved in their reformation, if at all?

    If she should get involved, should the Amazon's have an island dedicated to it, or should Diana visit them at prisons?

    Should Diana have exceptions to villain reformation, and if so who/what should those exceptions be? (The clarify: These can be specific villains you feel have crossed the line a long time ago, or just general acts any villain has done or will attempt to do.)
    ~I just keep swimming through these threads~

  2. #2
    Spectacular Member AlexLyo's Avatar
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    I feel pretty strongly that reformation (or in the way I understand it, transformative justice) should be a big part of what makes Diana distinct as a character.

    I've mentioned this elsewhere before, but I do think its strange to have Diana miraculously believe in deep transformative justice and reformation if it isn't something that is part of the culture of the Amazons, and I see a lot of potential in having Diana learn how to practice this from mentors on the island for whom its their specialism. So with that in mind I think an island or an area for it on Themyscira makes sense. I really wouldn't see it as appropriate to have it function even remotely like a prison - most transformative justice work is about deliberately rejecting that way of thinking about reform and healing.

    There's plenty of rich story potential in Diana being part of a reformation process - both for the difficulty it presents and for how we'd get to see Diana both at her best and, sometimes, at her most tested. It would feel strange for Diana to simply "drop off" those she is seeking to help go through a process of change and come back later when it's over.

    Part of what makes Diana an inspiring character for me personally is that she sees humanity where others can't, sees reformation as possible when others can't or don't want to, and moves for transformation even when others don't think it is deserved. To that end I don't really want to impose my personal "red lines" or exceptions to who she would or wouldn't try to reform - what makes her a hero to me is believing she can reach, reform, love and heal even those I personally can't or don't know how to. If she just shared my personal red lines or exceptions, there wouldn't be much for me to reach towards as an inspiration.

    There's probably a story dead end if Diana succeeds in reforming absolutely everyone she encounters, but the trying is where all the richness comes in for me.

  3. #3
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    I could have this wrong.

    But I think that Mala was responsible for reformation of Amazons.
    My memory may be playing tricks on me.

    I do think that Diana is someone who makes people better being around her.
    But as I've said elsewhere there ought to be limits.
    I think you need to have someone who has done despicable things, to
    develop a conscience, an awareness of what they have done.

  4. #4
    Ultimate Member Gaius's Avatar
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    I imagine it's mixture of depending on the villain and personal preference. All of Diana's "big three" villains have had storylines where's some setup for them to be reformed (or least see the current error of their ways).

    I liked what Jimenez did with Reformation Island (which Simone picked up a bit) which is it's where the magical/super-powered threats go since it's unclear what jurisdiction they'd even fall under to be imprisoned. It removing powers is also a much better update of the brainwashing aspects of the original.

    I tend to sour on a lot of modern version reformation/villain redemption storylines, mainly 'cause it seems like it's always the most heinously over the top ones people want to see reformed like Harley Quinn rather than I guess the more comical/less serious but also less irredeemable villains.

  5. #5
    Fishy Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    I imagine it's mixture of depending on the villain and personal preference. All of Diana's "big three" villains have had storylines where's some setup for them to be reformed (or least see the current error of their ways).

    I liked what Jimenez did with Reformation Island (which Simone picked up a bit) which is it's where the magical/super-powered threats go since it's unclear what jurisdiction they'd even fall under to be imprisoned. It removing powers is also a much better update of the brainwashing aspects of the original.

    I tend to sour on a lot of modern version reformation/villain redemption storylines, mainly 'cause it seems like it's always the most heinously over the top ones people want to see reformed like Harley Quinn rather than I guess the more comical/less serious but also less irredeemable villains.
    You bring up an interesting point because often times in comics, when a big villain becomes reformed it’s because the writer doesn’t know what else to do with them and it trying something different, which can come out of left field and be sloppy.

    I mean, Luther is currently “reformed” (?) or something, he’s on that “Totality” team with the Justice League, and it happened right after he tried to blow up the multiverse. It just felt like DC didn’t know what to do with him after but didn’t want to throw him in jail.

    If you write a character with the end goal of being reformed, it comes off a lot cleaner. But in situations with major villains, it can feel like the writer isn’t really trying because they know they’re going to go back to being villains again at some point. .
    ~I just keep swimming through these threads~

  6. #6

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    If it's someone that falls under the Amazons jurisdiction and not any other jurisdiction and if it's someone that Diana thinks would be better cared for under the Amazons care.

    Now I don't want villains to be wrapped up in Venus Girdles and brainwashed to be good. It would be better if it was something closer to a Nordic model where the prisoners are allowed to read, exercise and constantly examined until they could make the choice to be reformed. The Venus Girdles can be reinterpreted as 'power inhibitors' for the more powerful villains or they can be used to restrain but not brainwash prisoners.

  7. #7
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    I think one advantage the Golden Age had was that it churned out a LOT of new and one-shot villains who didn't have ridiculously bleak schemes that resulted in mass destruction. That helped convey that the villains weren't completely reprehensible and helping them reform wouldn't be a waste of time, and the Amazons were allowed successes.

    So I think following the same model, by creating new threats with the intention of reforming them or even updating some of the old one shot Golden/Silver age foes and using them that way again, would be beneficial to the Wonder Woman mythos.


    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    If it's someone that falls under the Amazons jurisdiction and not any other jurisdiction and if it's someone that Diana thinks would be better cared for under the Amazons care.

    Now I don't want villains to be wrapped up in Venus Girdles and brainwashed to be good. It would be better if it was something closer to a Nordic model where the prisoners are allowed to read, exercise and constantly examined until they could make the choice to be reformed. The Venus Girdles can be reinterpreted as 'power inhibitors' for the more powerful villains or they can be used to restrain but not brainwash prisoners.
    I like that idea for the Venus Girdles. Maybe have that be how the Amazons use them, and if a writer wants to takcle the brainwashing aspect, have that be a function only used by Queen Desira's society. Maybe re-cast Desira as a well intentioned "villain" whom Diana needs to challenge.

  8. #8
    Ultimate Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I'm a Fish View Post
    You bring up an interesting point because often times in comics, when a big villain becomes reformed it’s because the writer doesn’t know what else to do with them and it trying something different, which can come out of left field and be sloppy.

    I mean, Luther is currently “reformed” (?) or something, he’s on that “Totality” team with the Justice League, and it happened right after he tried to blow up the multiverse. It just felt like DC didn’t know what to do with him after but didn’t want to throw him in jail.

    If you write a character with the end goal of being reformed, it comes off a lot cleaner. But in situations with major villains, it can feel like the writer isn’t really trying because they know they’re going to go back to being villains again at some point. .
    Well, I suppose as with a lot of issues in American superhero comics that has to do with the need for an ongoing narrative that goes well beyond the lifespans of the original creators. I think Paula von Gunther's redemption is one of the more poorly aged aspects of Marston's run but as far as I can tell she never relapsed back into villainy in Pre-Crisis and I imagine that happening under WW's original creator has something to do with it.

    Also Paula's place in WW's rogues gallery getting tacking up by others since then so there's no story need for her to fall back in comparison to how any "Lex is a good guy now" storyline has a finite lifespan.

  9. #9

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    The only way I can see Paula Von Gunther's arc working in any modern day story is if she sacrifices herself via redemption and her daughter spends the rest of her life trying to atone for her atrocities. Or Gunther herself is imprisoned for life and is working to atone for her sins while in there.

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