ASM #76 (877) review and spoilers

[MisterC]

This is my one big problem with Ben's return so far.

Last Peter knew, Ben had (directly or indirectly) killed a lot of people and was bent on world domination through the medium of clones. Spider-Geddon was basically a bunch of bullet points, one of which being Ben sacrificing himself but that doesn't undo all the damage he did. I really dislike the trope that one big gesture good dead undoes all the bad a character has previously done.

I like that Ben is in therapy and Peter seemed to know that, but surely the trust needs to be rebuilt? That is the route I thought this was going to take, Beyond should show Ben redeeming himself to Peter. I mean, it's right there! Peter has to give Ben his blessing to be Spider-man again, have him say Ben needs to earn redemption for himself.

But no, it's all just swept under the rug because it's easier to imply a reunion than actually write a complex conversation where the two work out their differences. Hopefully that comes at the end with their reunion.

I feel like this is a lesson in why you don't haphazardly throw characters under the bus to serve as poorly thought out villains in stories. How does one work out there issues with someone who tried to do a genocide?

And Ben's motivation in Clone Conspiracy was so shallow and nonsensical "I died a lot of bad deaths and so I became bad and wanted to kill everyone" what could the conversation even be?

"I know I triiiieeed to kill everyone and replace them with clones but I was in a really bad headspace and I'm working through my issues. Please let me be Spidey.

I don't know that you can have the Convo without Peter looking worse than he does in this version, and he only looks bad to us poor sobs who suffered through or read wiki entry on Clone Conspiracy.

In my opinion, you really can't. And that's a lesson in treating these characters with more care, because someone else will have to pick up the mess.

So while from a continuity perspective, I get wanting to see it addressed and have the characters move forward. But I much prefer this rug sweeping so that this story I enjoy doesn't need to have it's pacing cannibalized justifying a story I don't much care for and that hasn't left an impact on the Spidey brand. Better to move on towards something better imo.

[boots]

I feel like this is a lesson in why you don't haphazardly throw characters under the bus to serve as poorly thought out villains in stories. How does one work out there issues with someone who tried to do a genocide?

And Ben's motivation in Clone Conspiracy was so shallow and nonsensical "I died a lot of bad deaths and so I became bad and wanted to kill everyone" what could the conversation even be?

"I know I triiiieeed to kill everyone and replace them with clones but I was in a really bad headspace and I'm working through my issues. Please let me be Spidey.

I don't know that you can have the Convo without Peter looking worse than he does in this version, and he only looks bad to us poor sobs who suffered through or read wiki entry on Clone Conspiracy.

In my opinion, you really can't. And that's a lesson in treating these characters with more care, because someone else will have to pick up the mess.

So while from a continuity perspective, I get wanting to see it addressed and have the characters move forward. But I much prefer this rug sweeping so that this story I enjoy doesn't need to have it's pacing cannibalized justifying a story I don't much care for and that hasn't left an impact on the Spidey brand. Better to move on towards something better imo.

as much as i tried to give clone conspiracy a chance at the time, i agree with all this. spending time bridging the gap and trying to fix or address continuity seems less important to me than just getting on with the story. as you point out, any attempt to do so will probably end up less than satisfying for readers anyway (i never bought the hal jordan stuff ).

i'm treating this as the return story and dismissing the rest as a bad dream.

then again, who knows? beyond might end up addressing conspiracy further down the track anyway.

[Webhead]

I mean, Peter already gave someone his blessing to be Spider-Man after they tried to kill humanity, and Ock wasn't even a version of himself!

[boots]

I mean, Peter already gave someone his blessing to be Spider-Man after they tried to kill humanity, and Ock wasn't even a version of himself!

ha. he also gave venom his blessing back in the day...there we go: continuity preserved

[MisterC]

ha. he also gave venom his blessing back in the day...there we go: continuity preserved

And it was this arrangement that led to Venom being Ben Reilly's first villain as Scarlet Spider and that arc and Ben's inner monologue was used by the Spidey group at the time to criticize the decisions made by the previous team. It was also one of the first hints that Ben was being set up as the real Pete.

The end is the beginning and the beginning is the end.

[Pav]

ha. he also gave venom his blessing back in the day...there we go: continuity preserved

AND Peter thought about doing a genocide for a second with the Jackal back in the 90s.

So, y'know, let's not be hypocrites, Peter

-Pav, who is bummed we don't get a new issue tomorrow...

[Spiderfan001]

AND Peter thought about doing a genocide for a second with the Jackal back in the 90s.

So, y'know, let's not be hypocrites, Peter

-Pav, who is bummed we don't get a new issue tomorrow...

Buddy you wanna give context for the genocide thing, can't drop bombs like that(literally as well)

[TheCape]

Buddy you wanna give context for the genocide thing, can't drop bombs like that(literally as well)

It was right after the test proving that Peter was a clone and Ben was the "real" one, during the Maximum Clonage storyline (before OMD this was the worst Spider-Man story ever written), Jackal went to him and convinced him that because Peter was a clone he should join him in his genocidal plan and Peter accepted, it was as stupid as it sounds. Peter betrayed him halfway into it and the most villanous thing that he did was beating Punisher up after he attacked Warren (as part of some convoluted scheme to make Peter trust him more), but again, is a horrible story from beginning to end, the only good scene is a conversation beetween Kaine and MJ. Did i mention that 95 really sucked for Spider-Man?.

[Spiderfan001]

It was right after the test proving that Peter was a clone and Ben was the "real" one, during the Maximum Clonage storyline (before OMD this was the worst Spider-Man story ever written), Jackal went to him and convinced him that because Peter was a clone he should join him in his genocidal plan and Peter accepted, it was as stupid as it sounds. Peter betrayed him halfway into it and the most villanous thing that he did was beating Punisher up after he attacked Warren (as part of some convoluted scheme to make Peter trust him more), but again, is a horrible story from beginning to end, the only good scene is a conversation beetween Kaine and MJ. Did i mention that 95 really sucked for Spider-Man?.

Sounds worse than I remember it, although I only speed read through this and never visited it again and I don't think I ever will.

[ZeroBG82]

Yeah, Maximum Clonage is terrible. Honestly, what had started as such a strong story with Power and Responsibility through Web of Life/Death really starts to go off the rails about The Mark of Kaine. But by Clonage it was just balls to the wall stupid. And they don't really right the ship again until Sensational #0, with Ben as Spidey. It's that dark, dark period that rightfully earns the Clone Saga it's lampooning.

Honestly, if you could have pivoted from Amazing #400 or thereabouts right into Sensational #0 it would be a much better remembered story. There is some STRONG material in those first couple months, and the entire period of Ben as Spidey is actually quite good.

[HypnoHustler]

Yeah, Maximum Clonage is terrible. Honestly, what had started as such a strong story with Power and Responsibility through Web of Life/Death really starts to go off the rails about The Mark of Kaine. But by Clonage it was just balls to the wall stupid. And they don't really right the ship again until Sensational #0, with Ben as Spidey. It's that dark, dark period that rightfully earns the Clone Saga it's lampooning.

Honestly, if you could have pivoted from Amazing #400 or thereabouts right into Sensational #0 it would be a much better remembered story. There is some STRONG material in those first couple months, and the entire period of Ben as Spidey is actually quite good.

I mostly agree, except I did like a couple parts of ‘Exiled’ (like when Ben is flashing back to when he met Seward and then has to rescue him from Lady Ock), but yes mostly everything else from the end of ‘Mark of Kaine’ to just before Sensational #0 is garbage (even besides Maximum Clonage, there was the awful Time Bomb 2-parter and that unreadable mess with the VR Scarlet Spider).

Maximum Clonage did give us that classic ASM #404 Bags cover of Spidey fighting Scarlet, which I still see in poster form even today… so there’s that, at least.

[Nathan84]

oh yes, the 404 cover. Among the best!

[Huntsman Spider]

I feel like this is a lesson in why you don't haphazardly throw characters under the bus to serve as poorly thought out villains in stories. How does one work out there issues with someone who tried to do a genocide?

And Ben's motivation in Clone Conspiracy was so shallow and nonsensical "I died a lot of bad deaths and so I became bad and wanted to kill everyone" what could the conversation even be?

"I know I triiiieeed to kill everyone and replace them with clones but I was in a really bad headspace and I'm working through my issues. Please let me be Spidey.

I don't know that you can have the Convo without Peter looking worse than he does in this version, and he only looks bad to us poor sobs who suffered through or read wiki entry on Clone Conspiracy.

In my opinion, you really can't. And that's a lesson in treating these characters with more care, because someone else will have to pick up the mess.

So while from a continuity perspective, I get wanting to see it addressed and have the characters move forward. But I much prefer this rug sweeping so that this story I enjoy doesn't need to have it's pacing cannibalized justifying a story I don't much care for and that hasn't left an impact on the Spidey brand. Better to move on towards something better imo.

True enough, though to be slightly fair to Ben, he didn't want to go the "kill and reanimate everyone" route at first. At first, he thought he was genuinely doing good in a way that Peter couldn't, using Warren's advanced cloning tech to essentially undo every death Peter hadn't been able to prevent in his time as Spider-Man and giving other people second chances with their loved ones as well. It was only after Peter told him what he was doing, playing God with the lives and deaths of others, was flat-out irresponsible and Otto Octavius turned against him for insulting Anna Maria and tried to bring his whole project crashing down around his head by setting off the degeneration signal for the "reanimated" that Ben went completely off the rails and decided he might as well kill and reanimate everyone and thus end death as a reality. That said, I see your point about wanting to just move on and forward from that mess.

[Pav]

I mostly agree, except I did like a couple parts of ‘Exiled’ (like when Ben is flashing back to when he met Seward and then has to rescue him from Lady Ock), but yes mostly everything else from the end of ‘Mark of Kaine’ to just before Sensational #0 is garbage (even besides Maximum Clonage, there was the awful Time Bomb 2-parter and that unreadable mess with the VR Scarlet Spider).

Maximum Clonage did give us that classic ASM #404 Bags cover of Spidey fighting Scarlet, which I still see in poster form even today… so there’s that, at least.

I can't argue that the Scarlet Spider comics are GOOD comics, but I do believe they're mindless fun -- and, honestly, I really like that little subsection of the Clone Saga: the Scarlet Spider series, the crossovers with the New Warriors, and the Green Goblin series with Phil Urich. As a kid, these were exciting comics for me, so I still have a soft spot for them.

-Pav, who still likes the Scarlet/Goblin crossover as his favorite team-up TO THIS DAY...

[jda95]

I take great offense to calling the Scarlet Spider minis an unreadable mess. They're a readable mess!! I liked the concept of Cyber War even though it didn't land that well, and it was kinda clear the artists were phoning it in as well compared to their better work.

But yes, we can pretend Joe Wade never existed.