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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Writerblog View Post
    Because Germans were bad guys on WW1, they started the war and used dirty methods.
    While WWII are a more clear cut Fascists VS anti-Fascists.
    WW1 Germans are the bad guys in the sense they kinda started war, but ideology wise, yeah, most of them are Imperialist a-holes fighting over territories.(Not saying WW2 doesn't have this to some extent, but Germay/USSR basically cannibalizing Poland).

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by chicago_bastard View Post
    They literally shoehorned every Orientalist trope one could come up with into the movie.
    Ah, not really, while it's still very much Westerner's Eastern fantasy, it has a lot more stuff that Chinese audience can relate to.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeweasel View Post
    Boy, did Stan Lee hate Commies!
    Current day Russia is like run by conservatives and Capitalist sharks.
    They are sometimes still part of the red scare since they are still pretty much the other.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeweasel View Post
    Boy, did Stan Lee hate Commies!
    See this is kinda of the origin of Anti Russia stuff in Marvel, most Russian characters like Red Ghost and Titanium Man were made to be Cold War propaganda characters rather than fully developed characters in their own right and thus they are kinda dull, generic, one note bad guys and since 1991 the writers seem to struggle to explain why they are still around, hardly anyone gave them any development as characters. Only Russian characters who switched sides and moved to America, like Black Widow and Colossus got any sort of development.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Not like comics portray American government or corporations any better.

    I dropped Aaron's Avengers a while ago, but didn't a member of the American intelligence community literally make a deal with the devil?

    How many villains are super rich American businessmen? Or members of the government?

    I'm not defending the two-dimensional portrayal of Russians, or of any other group, but comics typically treat any government or corporation as evil, or at best misguided. I mean, does Amanda Waller and the Suicide Squad paint a nice, happy, quaint picture of American politics?

    We're dealing with a genre that operates on a binary morality; there is good and there is evil and damn little in between. It's not a narrative structure that easily lends itself to the complex, nuanced, and morally gray reality of actual politics.

    Let's not pretend that this is limited to Russia, or any other particular demographic. This is the way comics treat everything; you're either a hero or a villain and the anti-establishment core of superheroics mean every government and business is likely going to be at least a little villainous unless the hero is directly in control of it (like Wayne Industries or Wakanda).

    Doesn't bother me if the Russian government and the people who work for it are treated as villains. And that's not far from the truth either (just as it rings true for how comics treat American politicians and corporate leaders; they're all crooks). As long as comics don't treat the average citizen the same way it's fine.

    But lets face it, most of the Russian villains like Red Ghost and Titanium Man were created to Cold War propaganda characters and now they seem like outdated relics, no one bothered to make them into actual characters.
    Last edited by The Overlord; 10-16-2021 at 08:09 PM.

  5. #50
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    I’d say that they could probably revamp everyone who doesn’t have ‘Red’ in their codename* and make them work, but that would take time, effort and money that the audience wouldn’t reward and the next writer from a ‘higher’ title would throw out in an instant for the purpose of their story *points to what’s become of Marvel UK*

    *we’ve reached the RL expiry period of the very, very tired “disillusioned/ex-KGB/Red Army/etc guy becomes mob boss” trope that been used to explain why some Cold War propaganda villains are still active
    Last edited by king of hybrids; 10-17-2021 at 07:01 AM.

  6. #51
    Astonishing Member Ptrvc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by inisideguy View Post
    Its just goes round and round in circles. Everyone complains about a bias. How are any stories suppose to be written. Is a writer suppose to show a corresponding amount of good Russians when writing about bad Russians? I mean at some point I think everyone is going be off limits so the only thing heroes can fight are robots and aliens. And then then people might say there is to much bias toward robots and aliens.
    But if we replace the word Russian, with Muslim or Chinese, how does your statement.

    If it was truly a free for all I don't think we'd be having this thread, but there is an obvious double standard that many do not want to admit.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ptrvc View Post
    But if we replace the word Russian, with Muslim or Chinese, how does your statement.

    If it was truly a free for all I don't think we'd be having this thread, but there is an obvious double standard that many do not want to admit.

    Oh I am not saying Marvel or the media in general isn't staying away from Muslims or Chinese. I agree with you there. And I am not saying its fair. What I am saying is everyone starts claiming cultural bias and soon you can't portray anyone. Do they portray Russians as bad guys a lot? Yup. Mostly because there is no large Russian contingent complaining about it. To me the whole thing is crazy. I honestly don't know how media in other countries portrays Americans. But I am sure its not always in a good way. Am I suppose to be offended by that?

  8. #53
    Ghost Panther Marvell2100's Avatar
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    It's more of an anti-gov't stance rather hating the Russian people. Same as just about every gov't portrayed in comics. Most portray gov't as effectively criminal although they're using a broad brush.

  9. #54
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
    But lets face it, most of the Russian villains like Red Ghost and Titanium Man were created to Cold War propaganda characters and now they seem like outdated relics, no one bothered to make them into actual characters.
    This is true. But there's a long list of mostly forgotten characters from all nationalities, including America, that this applies to. Those old propaganda villains....there's a reason they almost never get used today, and nobody puts any effort into them when they do show up.

    As I said earlier, I don't condone racist/nationalist caricatures. But if the argument is that the Russian government is written as villainous....not only do comics treat almost every government that way, including our own, but in Russia's case it's true because Putin is the worst.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaximoffTrash View Post
    Current day Russia is like run by conservatives and Capitalist sharks.
    They are sometimes still part of the red scare since they are still pretty much the other.
    Can't think of any country that has benefited from conservatism.

  11. #56
    Original CBR member Jabare's Avatar
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    I feel like this is an overreaction because you're not used to how Jason Aaron writes and how he's been writing the Avengers. Plus, he's been setting up this subplot for a while around Mephisto. If you've read the previous 48 issues, it should be clear. So this is more about Jason Aaron and where he is taking his story than Marvel as a whole. Plus, the Marvel Universe, while similar to our world, is also very different.

    I'd say outside of Coulson going evil, with the U.S. government, the comic governments in this comic run don't come off that badly.

    End of the day, this isn't that different than other stories comic stories with the sinister U.S. governments, European governments, African nations, fictional countries. Etc. etc.

    I feel like it's just a talking point because of the recent political climate. What are the big Russian mainstream comic stories? Red Sun Superman and the Winter Soldier? How often do mainstream comics focus on Russia?

    To me, this is one storyline out of thousands. It's a fictional Russian government. This comic isn't going out of its way to say anything about the Russian people. Just my two cents, I don't feel like this comic run is that complex; he's got Vampires in Chernobyl and Devils whispering to Namor and Coulson. I wouldn't take this too seriously.
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  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabare View Post
    I feel like this is an overreaction because you're not used to how Jason Aaron writes and how he's been writing the Avengers. Plus, he's been setting up this subplot for a while around Mephisto. If you've read the previous 48 issues, it should be clear. So this is more about Jason Aaron and where he is taking his story than Marvel as a whole. Plus, the Marvel Universe, while similar to our world, is also very different.
    The fact that you made it through 49 issues of this current run is quite impressive! You're a stronger person than I am.
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  13. #58
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    For real, I was done by issue....12? I dunno. We were dealing with vampires and the Winter Guard and the Squadron Supreme had just showed up and were working for Coulson. Maybe I lasted more than 12 issues? Felt like longer, anyway. Couldn't support it anymore, and felt like I had stuck around too long already.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJNeal View Post
    The fact that you made it through 49 issues of this current run is quite impressive! You're a stronger person than I am.
    I bailed after the first 6 issues.

  15. #60
    Astonishing Member chamber-music's Avatar
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    The Cold War elements are somewhat outdated but it isn't like Russia doesn't still engage in espionage, sabotage and assassination.

    It's an open secret that Western countries have had attacks from Russia's GRU intelligence operatives
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56798001

    The lazy outdated stereotypes are still rife in comics across the board. Despite having access to the greatest information tool in human history (the internet), you still get some lazy outdated depictions of certain nationalities, cultures, regions and so on.

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