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  1. #46
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MakeNightwingGreatAgain View Post
    We are just gonna have to agree to disagree here. I don’t see it especially when Babs was originally way too old for Dick in the first place. Babs was never planned to be with Dick until they needed something to contrast Dick Kory. It would be more believable if you know, DC didn’t place Babs with legit all the batfam. They never were originally together as batgirl and Robin. You might be confusing her with Bette Kane who was the batgirl that was placed with Robin briefly. Barbra Gordon was originally shipped with Batman thanks to the original tv series and comics where she was more of a Batman girl than Robin (whcih is what Bruce Timm grew up with). Since then. She was aged down dramatically to be with Dick. The only time where they had a little thing was when pre-teen dick had a very short lived crush on babs. And babs as An adult kissed him. Dick clearly was taken a back by it as well. I don’t really count that as proof of their history.

    I disagree about Ted Kord. Babs was clearly in a serious thing with him and was shocked to find out his true identity. It was something that was going somewhere until it was randomly stopped. I know Jason has appeared but they did zero with his development with babs.
    They were the dynamite duo. They had a history. BTAS put them together romantically and comics followed suit, it had nothing to do with Kory. It didn't matter if they were together as Batgirl and Robin, they developed a romantic relationship as Oracle and Nightwing.

    And they went on one date. This isn't really a matter of opinion. Like you said she was shocked to find out his true identity. Its was an online fling that never developed into anything serious. Started by the same creator who was pairing up Nightwing and Oracle. It was never going anywhere. Also again they addressed Bard's time with Babs. They didn't retcon it, but brought closure to it. The relationship was over. What more was to be done.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 10-23-2021 at 01:46 AM.

  2. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    They were the dynamite duo. They had a history. BTAS put them together romantically and comics followed suit, it had nothing to do with Kory. Its didn't matter if they were together as Batgirl and Robin, they developed a romantic relationship as Oracle and Nightwing.

    And they went on one date. This isn't really a matter of opinion. Like you said she was shocked to find out his true identity. Its was an online fling that never developed into anything serious. Started by the same creator who was pairing up Nightwing and Oracle. It was never going anywhere. Also again they addressed Bard's time with Babs. They didn't retcon it, but brought closure to it. The relationship was over. What more was to be done.
    Ok so my point is that if Oracle and Nightwing were so great then why continue to retcon after retcon. The complaint is about retconning the importance of Kory out of Dicks life in order to make Babs better despite Kory being a bigger influence on his character overall. I get that Nightwing and Oracle has chemistry, but it was at the expense of another great romance that should have been acknowledged properly and continues to be downgraded by DC. If DC had such great faith in that chemistry between batgirl and Nightwing, then why donít they actually have them as end game and why is their romance always a failure in most context. And 90% of the time itís babs who breaks up with Dick and is really rude and mean about it as well. Idk about you but I would never date and overly jealous person who berates me and makes everything my fault.

    Outside of select runs, Babs has rarely been with dick in a positive way. Iím even i the classic Oracle days Dick and Babs were toxic despite thier moments. Even the way Gail Simone has Batgirl talk about Dick in BOP is really not my cup of tea. And that solidifies what DC thinks of their relationship and that rubs not only me but others the wrong way. Regardless of the chemistry, itís not something that feels organic. If it has to be shoehorned in and forced, it shouldnít be there in the first place. I mean the point alone of BTAS is great because Bruce Timm was a BrucexBabs shipper because thatís what he grew up on. Dick Babs got a following cuz of that yes, but so did Bruce Babs. Just like Tim Babs got a following from the game. So it drives home the point that Dick Babs only works when itís being used as fodder to push batfam content for Nightwing to keep him close.

    So I donít think the complaint is about Dick Babs not having great moments because they do, but those moments come at the expense of the advancement of both characters and often times thier pasts.

    Kory was Dicks tether to Titans ans continues to be. Thatís why I bought up the point of DC using DickxBabs to counter DickxKory. Babs is the tether to Batfam and continues to be. They mirror each other nicely as to satisfy shippers and allow dick to appear in both content.

    As for Bars and Kord, i wa just pointing out that Babs had great things with both characters that neve went anywhere despite better matches for her.

    With all this being said, I highly doubt DC will let them settle and in fact I believe that they are enjoying this playboy, dumbed down version of Dick. So I donít think he will ever truely have a end game love interest because bateditorial needs him to not have one. That is unless he gets another editor.

    If dick marries Babs thatíll piss off kory fans. If dick marries Kory itíd piss off bab fans. Dick babs and dick Kory should exist outside canon to satisfy shippers. His Main end game should be an entirely new character who we grow with and slow burn to marriage or kid. Thatíd be the best way to do it. That way everyone is happy.

  3. #48
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Dc has ruined the appeal but having Babs be terrible during the hard times and she blames him for everything. Slut shaming him and then gets jealous when he moves on. She has kept telling him you broke my heart despite him not doing everything before and after the ric saga. Many other times has well through the decades.She has faulted him for their relationship failing despite Babs not voicing what she wanted and being fickle. She knew about him being rape but throw that in his face. So how is that a relationship to be wanting more of. Dc had 25 years of not using DickKori instead of just do they get back together but instead we have them almost using that in TTA before Tom goes with DickBabs. The editors could have made it clean and not have Dick and Kori be anyway involved. Not only that but 25 years no marriage. They could have gone and screw the fans and married Dickbabs official. But no we get her being jealous before they get together doing when they get together and after but still angry at him for something she did.

    I don't hate DickBabs it's just right now Dc has ruined it for me. They need put it on the side. Since they ruin third characters. They ruin Kori by slut shaming her and calling her only a lust thing. They down play one to make the other look better. They can't keep doing that. They can't keep doing that in the comics of Dick only being with Kori because he wants her body to make DickBabs fans happy. I want DickBabs or DickKori but not right now. They ruined both ships. I don't want Dick in the Live Action movie to be her love interest. THis DickBabs isn't going to stay like all the other times they get together. They could have gotten together anything. They could have made writers say can you do this. Like not have the two be broke up.
    Last edited by AmiMizuno; 10-22-2021 at 09:30 PM.

  4. #49
    Fantastic Member Castiel's Avatar
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    Honestly I don't like Babs with anyone in the Batfamily. Especially since that aberration of a sex scene with Bruce in the so call Killing Joke movie. I feel like she and Dick need to be more of a brother and sister type of relationship espeically since they often work together.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    She knew about him being rape but throw that in his face.
    When did this happen?

  6. #51
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    It didn't. He was raped, but it wasn't acknowledged as rape till later. And never in story.

  7. #52
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    Yeah, I figured they were talking about Tarantula, but I wanted to make sure I didn't miss something.

  8. #53
    Fantastic Member Castiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    It didn't. He was raped, but it wasn't acknowledged as rape till later. And never in story.
    Yeah that's another reason I don't like Babs with him I mean blaming Dick for getting raped is something that shouldn't be forgiven. If that ever gets brought up again Dick should just viciously dump her and tell Babs she's dead to him.

  9. #54
    Extraordinary Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    They could cut all that and the relationship would still have worked just on what they were doing with them as adults. Its not that there weren't retcons, but they were supplementary.
    The point is the supplementary material is only meant to create the impression that Dick and Babs were always meant to be and that even when they were dating other people, they were still holding a torch for the other.

    It's one thing if DC played them as platonic childhood friends who later developed romantic feelings as adults but that's not how the pairing is often portrayed. By showing them having feelings for each other even when dating other people, it invalidates other romantic options for both characters.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rac7d* View Post
    Isnít that how it works in DC? Few marvel characters have been in this predicament like Cyclops, Jean Wolverine, Emma. Perhaps Kitty pryde, I suppose with collosus, and quill and now also Magyk. And even then the discourse is not as bad
    I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.


    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    They were the dynamite duo. They had a history. BTAS put them together romantically and comics followed suit, it had nothing to do with Kory. It didn't matter if they were together as Batgirl and Robin, they developed a romantic relationship as Oracle and Nightwing.

    And they went on one date. This isn't really a matter of opinion. Like you said she was shocked to find out his true identity. Its was an online fling that never developed into anything serious. Started by the same creator who was pairing up Nightwing and Oracle. It was never going anywhere. Also again they addressed Bard's time with Babs. They didn't retcon it, but brought closure to it. The relationship was over. What more was to be done.
    Even on B:TAS, the Dick/Babs romance didn't blossom into anything. Even ignoring the terrible Bruce/Babs thing, Barbara was shown happily married to Sam Young on the show.

    I also think that the Dick Grayson of the DCAU was a good Robin. The Robin in B:TAS is how I think the character should be portrayed; college aged, pants, clever, roughly an equal to Bruce and can think on his feet. But I don't think he was a good Nightwing. I thought the DCAU Nightwing without his connection to the Titans lacked something and it shows. Because in TNBA, the best they could do was either some light Dick/Babs tension or more Bat Family soap opera between Bruce/Dick.

  10. #55
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    The NTT run, the 2003 cartoon and even the animated Nu52 movies plus the Titans show have given the pairing some kind of boost over the years. So I don't think the NTT run is the only thing the pairing has going for it and you got to ask yourself why the pairing keeps resonating with so many people despite DC's efforts to bury the Titans during the Didio era.
    Comics wise, nostalgia for the NTT era IS pretty much the only time Dick/Kory ends up coming back to the forefront when they try to give the Titans IP another shot in the arm in general. When their latest attempt fizzles out as it has multiple times, then Dick/Kory usually goes along with it. And not all of this can be blamed on DiDio. Yes he made the Titans situation way worse, but the Titans' star had fallen on the comic front way before he entered the picture. After all, it's the main reason Nightwing was snatched back up by the Bat-office and was able to sustain a solo. He was a bigger deal as a solo act (even if one tied to Batman) than any of the other Titan save Wally. And this period is where Dick/Babs started to take off.

    The other media depictions of Dick/Kory are very important, but they rehash the NTT era a lot of the time for a new audience with their own twists on it. They aren't bringing anything new to the table any more than any Dick/Babs stuff does, and all it does is ensure that both of these will continue to be Dick's most popular pairings and no definitive choosing will ever happen as long as there is a profit to be made stringing people along and Dick has one foot in each franchise. Even his guest appearance in Starfire's short lived series was about how they weren't likely to work out long term.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    Actually, I think they are connected and it just hit me, there is a parallel here to Spider-Man/OMD.
    While I do agree with your main point that making Babs Batgirl in the main canon again (in ways that don't even mesh with the popular depictions of her in that identity) was a big mistake, it's still its own larger separate issue. The infantilization of her in the Dick/Babs romance is one part of the problem, but related to the larger issue and not an inherent problem with the ship itself. Like Godlike said, the main aspects that made the ship popular were BTAS and the Oracle/Nightwing era, where the romance would work regardless of retcons or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    And while I agree that ultimately the ones in charge of the IP gets to decide what to do with them and the current Nightwing run is a nostalgic throw back to Dixon's Nightwing run, I think they still need to do what's best for the character and do more than harken back to nostaglia.
    While this is true, it does also apply to Dick/Kory and his connection to the Titans in general. Nostalgia for the Titans has done him no favors for him in recent years. The Titans feel incomplete without him and he's the main face of the IP (as Robin or Nightwing), but all of his best stories in recent years haven't had anything to do with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    I grew up with both B:TAS and 2k3 Titans. Spent most of the Didio editorial era going through back issues of older comics. I used to root for Dick/Babs but I think over time I changed my mind and started rooting for Dick/Kory. I think the latter just has more going for it while Dick/Babs feel like it's there because the editorial/writers want it and not because it feels organic for both characters.
    But again, whenever Dick/Kory gets dusted off again before DC throws it back on the shelf, it usually comes across as the same thing: they are putting them back together because writers/editors want to do something with it and not necessarily because it works for the characters at this point.

    And both sides of the shipping debate are biased and rooting for their team, but either way I think most criticisms that can be applied to one usually apply to the other. And we probably all have to accept the fact that neither ship is ever going to be put to bed or built off of to become endgame because of Dick's unique (and kind of annoying) status as a big character tied to two IPs where work has been done giving him a true love for each.

  11. #56
    Fantastic Member Castiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    And both sides of the shipping debate are biased and rooting for their team, but either way I think most criticisms that can be applied to one usually apply to the other. And we probably all have to accept the fact that neither ship is ever going to be put to bed or built off of to become endgame because of Dick's unique (and kind of annoying) status as a big character tied to two IPs where work has been done giving him a true love for each.
    True at this point I'm just sick of both ships and I just feel like both are forced how I see it is this Babs is that girl you date as a kid it's great but not going to end in happily ever after and Kori is the girl you grow up to marry. I feel that's what needs to be the formula with this situation. Babs often comes off as a terrible girlfriend when she breaks up with Dick to the point where I'm sick of her and him at this point. Actually I'm sick of Dick being tied to the Batfamily in general he needs his own solo adventures where the Bat Family are not tied to him.

  12. #57
    Fantastic Member L.H.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castiel View Post
    Yeah that's another reason I don't like Babs with him I mean blaming Dick for getting raped is something that shouldn't be forgiven. If that ever gets brought up again Dick should just viciously dump her and tell Babs she's dead to him.
    Do you know that Kori did the same? Or you forgot about Mirage?

  13. #58
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castiel View Post
    Yeah that's another reason I don't like Babs with him I mean blaming Dick for getting raped is something that shouldn't be forgiven. If that ever gets brought up again Dick should just viciously dump her and tell Babs she's dead to him.
    She didn't blame him for getting raped, because according to the story he wasn't raped. That wasn't really acknowledged until the audience pointed it out.

  14. #59
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    For me, Dick and Babs are like Bruce and Selina in that its an overrated pairing that tends to diminish both parities involved.

    Dick ultimately needs a love interest that isn't Babs or Kory, IMO, but much like Bruce, I get the feeling that DC would rather pair Dick with a tried and true, popular love interest.
    Last edited by TheBatman; 10-23-2021 at 01:17 PM.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    The point is the supplementary material is only meant to create the impression that Dick and Babs were always meant to be and that even when they were dating other people, they were still holding a torch for the other.

    It's one thing if DC played them as platonic childhood friends who later developed romantic feelings as adults but that's not how the pairing is often portrayed. By showing them having feelings for each other even when dating other people, it invalidates other romantic options for both characters.
    As the relationship grew in popularity, the more they pandered. But the relationship doesn't depend on it to function.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    Even on B:TAS, the Dick/Babs romance didn't blossom into anything. Even ignoring the terrible Bruce/Babs thing, Barbara was shown happily married to Sam Young on the show.

    I also think that the Dick Grayson of the DCAU was a good Robin. The Robin in B:TAS is how I think the character should be portrayed; college aged, pants, clever, roughly an equal to Bruce and can think on his feet. But I don't think he was a good Nightwing. I thought the DCAU Nightwing without his connection to the Titans lacked something and it shows. Because in TNBA, the best they could do was either some light Dick/Babs tension or more Bat Family soap opera between Bruce/Dick.
    Just because they didn't end up together in the end doesn't abolish the validity of it. They still made sense but drama got in their way. And the creators wanting to mess with their fans expectations. BTAS was a Batman show, and Dick was a supporting character. It wasn't really about him in the end. But it was still one of the first other media adaptions of Nightwing. That introduced him to a lot of kids. Like me for example.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 10-23-2021 at 12:53 PM.

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